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Questions re Barbara Loe Fisher and Hurd Immunity
Posted: 03 June 2015 11:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:01 AM

When a parent sees a child go from being a normal healthy baby to regressing into a baby she does not recognize right after a vaccine, this IS clinical evidence.  She IS the one that is constantly observing her baby. She has correctly identified, defined, and diagnosed her own child correctly before any lab test.  All she needs is her eyes, ears, and hands.  For anyone to scoff at her ANECDOTAL account of what is going on should be litigated against.  I hope doctors are charged with negligence who don’t take a mother’s HISTORY with her child seriously.

It might help if you did a little research of your own on why anecdotal evidence is unreliable and almost entirely meaningless. From RationalWiki “Whereas anecdotal evidence is sometimes the starting point of a proper scientific investigation, it is all too often the ending point and every point of a pseudoscientific investigation. “ 
You can read more here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

So if some parents state that they see a pattern of vaccines and autism it may be the impetus for a study, but when those studies are complete and they find no link the hypothesis based on that anecdotal evidence can correctly be considered disproved.

You seem willing to just accept anecdotal evidence as the final word showing once again that you are not interested in a rational or scientific debate.

[ Edited: 03 June 2015 11:09 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 03 June 2015 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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macgyver - 03 June 2015 11:07 AM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:01 AM

When a parent sees a child go from being a normal healthy baby to regressing into a baby she does not recognize right after a vaccine, this IS clinical evidence.  She IS the one that is constantly observing her baby. She has correctly identified, defined, and diagnosed her own child correctly before any lab test.  All she needs is her eyes, ears, and hands.  For anyone to scoff at her ANECDOTAL account of what is going on should be litigated against.  I hope doctors are charged with negligence who don’t take a mother’s HISTORY with her child seriously.

It might help if you did a little research of your own on why anecdotal evidence is unreliable and almost entirely meaningless. From RationalWiki “Whereas anecdotal evidence is sometimes the starting point of a proper scientific investigation, it is all too often the ending point and every point of a pseudoscientific investigation. “ 
You can read more here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

So if some parents state that they see a pattern of vaccines and autism it may be the impetus for a study, but when those studies are complete and they find no link the hypothesis based on that anecdotal evidence can correctly be considered disproved.

You seem willing to just accept anecdotal evidence as the final word showing once again that you are not interested in a rational or scientific debate.

That’s like saying the fact that I ingested something and got deathly sick seconds afterward isn’t valid because I didn’t do a study?  The study says there was no link because there were other possible things that caused my sudden illness.  You would trust the study; I would trust my anecdotal evidence that it was what I ingested.

[ Edited: 03 June 2015 11:20 AM by peacegirl ]
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Posted: 03 June 2015 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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macgyver - 03 June 2015 11:02 AM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 10:50 AM

Vaccines are not only unsafe, they are ineffective.  You are blind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MblZctrjOM

Please stop with the silly youtube videos. That’s not how you have a rational debate.

Absolutely not!  Whatever I bring to the table needs to be carefully analyzed.  You won’t do that because you may be shown up.  For you not to listen makes your argument weak.  It’s your way of trying to get an edge because you know you can beat me with your doctor talk if I just wouldn’t have any real back up to what I’m saying.  I will continue to share videos and studies that support what I’m saying and why I am passionate about this topic.  Your arguments that claim vaccines are safe and effective are not convincing.

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Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:14 AM

That’s like saying the fact that I ingested something and got deathly sick seconds afterward isn’t valid because I didn’t do a study?

LOL

Can you, or any other anti-vaxxer, cite a single documented instance of anyone getting “deathly sick” seconds after being vaccinated? No, of course not!

And even if you could cite such an example, it does not follow that the vaccine caused the deathly sickness. But you are incapable of understanding the difference between causation and correlation, just as you are unable to understand anything at all.

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Posted: 03 June 2015 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:14 AM

That’s like saying the fact that I ingested something and got deathly sick seconds afterward isn’t valid because I didn’t do a study?  The study says there was no link because there were other possible things that caused my sudden illness.  You would trust the study; I would trust my anecdotal evidence that it was what I ingested.

You seem to have a hard time understanding simple concepts. If a single person ingested something and got deathly sick moments later theri would rightfully be suspiscion of the substance he consumed but if an autopsy or some other study found that the food was safe and perhaps he actually was ill from some non-food related disease than of course I would trust the data and throw out my suspicion of the food.

This actually happened not long ago when a patient of mine got sick in restaurant and they wanted to blame the restaurant but in fact what was happening was that he had a heart attack and his abdominal pain was due to poor blood flow to the intestines.

Like I said above. An anecdote is only a starting point. Anecdotes more often than not point us in the wrong direction due to the human propensity to see patterns everywhere. Even where they dont exist. That’s why objective evidence is crucial so we can separate the patterns that show a true relationship fro the ones that are a mirage like the perceived pattern between vaccines and autism.

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Posted: 03 June 2015 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:24 AM
macgyver - 03 June 2015 11:02 AM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 10:50 AM

Vaccines are not only unsafe, they are ineffective.  You are blind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MblZctrjOM

Please stop with the silly youtube videos. That’s not how you have a rational debate.

Absolutely not!  Whatever I bring to the table needs to be carefully analyzed.  You won’t do that because you may be shown up.  For you not to listen makes your argument weak.  It’s your way of trying to get an edge because you know you can beat me with your doctor talk if I just wouldn’t have any real back up to what I’m saying.  I will continue to share videos and studies that support what I’m saying and why I am passionate about this topic.  Your arguments that claim vaccines are safe and effective are not convincing.

The videos you have posted have mostly been ( I’m sorry after the first few I got the jist and didn’t have the patience or the stomach for the rest) just long winded opinion pieces by people who give no data to back their claims. Its disrespectful of everyone’s time to ask them to watch these silly things. If you have a study or data that supports your point than post it. if not then dont waste our time with what other people think. I really don’t care what they think. I only care about the data and the facts not their interpretation of the facts or their opinions. I’m sorry if all my sciency “doctor talk” is confusing to you, but you don’t get the answers to questions like this with silly feel good statements about whats natural and whats artificial and with meaningless scare words like toxins. If you aren’t comfortable or knowledgeable enough to discuss this in a factual, rational, scientific way then you are in the wrong place, and if you can’t do that you should be trusting this decision to those who can instead of running around the internet yelling that the sky is falling like chicken little.

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Posted: 03 June 2015 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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macgyver - 03 June 2015 12:06 PM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:14 AM

That’s like saying the fact that I ingested something and got deathly sick seconds afterward isn’t valid because I didn’t do a study?  The study says there was no link because there were other possible things that caused my sudden illness.  You would trust the study; I would trust my anecdotal evidence that it was what I ingested.

You seem to have a hard time understanding simple concepts. If a single person ingested something and got deathly sick moments later theri would rightfully be suspiscion of the substance he consumed but if an autopsy or some other study found that the food was safe and perhaps he actually was ill from some non-food related disease than of course I would trust the data and throw out my suspicion of the food.

This actually happened not long ago when a patient of mine got sick in restaurant and they wanted to blame the restaurant but in fact what was happening was that he had a heart attack and his abdominal pain was due to poor blood flow to the intestines.

Like I said above. An anecdote is only a starting point. Anecdotes more often than not point us in the wrong direction due to the human propensity to see patterns everywhere. Even where they dont exist. That’s why objective evidence is crucial so we can separate the patterns that show a true relationship fro the ones that are a mirage like the perceived pattern between vaccines and autism.

No, I don’t buy what you’re saying.  Yes, there can be a coincidence when eating food that ends up not being from the food, but when it comes to a child developing regressive characteristics that were not there until the latest round of a multi-dose vaccine, I would trust my gut instinct as a mother that the vaccine injured my child.  Not only is it a lie that vaccines are safe for all children (it is not a one size fits all), but if your child is damaged it takes years for the vaccine court to compensate your child who needs 24 hour care.  It is sick all around.  I will take my chances and not vaccinate until I know that in trying to eliminate a disease (which doesn’t even work half the time [boosters are constantly needed] and it disrupts the body’s natural eco-system which has evolved over centuries) I’m not creating havoc in my child’s overly reactive immune and neurological systems.  Every parent has a right to decide whether they want to risk getting their child vaccinated or not.  I don’t care about the herd argument.  I am not obligated to do anything I feel is unsafe for my child even if you think it is irrational.  angry

[ Edited: 03 June 2015 02:30 PM by peacegirl ]
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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 02:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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macgyver - 03 June 2015 12:16 PM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 11:24 AM
macgyver - 03 June 2015 11:02 AM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 10:50 AM

Vaccines are not only unsafe, they are ineffective.  You are blind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MblZctrjOM

Please stop with the silly youtube videos. That’s not how you have a rational debate.

Absolutely not!  Whatever I bring to the table needs to be carefully analyzed.  You won’t do that because you may be shown up.  For you not to listen makes your argument weak.  It’s your way of trying to get an edge because you know you can beat me with your doctor talk if I just wouldn’t have any real back up to what I’m saying.  I will continue to share videos and studies that support what I’m saying and why I am passionate about this topic.  Your arguments that claim vaccines are safe and effective are not convincing.

The videos you have posted have mostly been ( I’m sorry after the first few I got the jist and didn’t have the patience or the stomach for the rest) just long winded opinion pieces by people who give no data to back their claims.

Noooo macgvver, that is a big fat cop-out!  I posted videos from doctors and will continue to do so.  These people have evidence that vaccines are causing harm.  These are not just long winded opinion pieces.  You just don’t want to be confronted.  Your data is extremely limited and therefore not reliable.  You do not know all of the potential side-effects that these vaccines can cause in certain vulnerable subsets of children, and for you to say that you do is irresponsible.

macgyver - 03 June 2015 12:16 PM

Its disrespectful of everyone’s time to ask them to watch these silly things.

Actually, it may save them heartache.  No one knows which child will have a severe reaction.  Maybe they will think twice about getting their children vaccinated and fight for free choice!

macgyver - 03 June 2015 12:16 PM

If you have a study or data that supports your point than post it. if not then dont waste our time with what other people think. I really don’t care what they think.

There IS data given.  Did you look at Andrew Wakefield’s video?  I respect this man very much.  He is fighting the good fight because the media is not being honest.

macgyver - 03 June 2015 12:16 PM

I only care about the data and the facts not their interpretation of the facts or their opinions. I’m sorry if all my sciency “doctor talk” is confusing to you, but you don’t get the answers to questions like this with silly feel good statements about whats natural and whats artificial and with meaningless scare words like toxins. If you aren’t comfortable or knowledgeable enough to discuss this in a factual, rational, scientific way then you are in the wrong place, and if you can’t do that you should be trusting this decision to those who can instead of running around the internet yelling that the sky is falling like chicken little.

Your science is bogus!  It only offers one thing; that when you inject a vaccine into a baby, you get a certain immune response.  They measure the antibodies, but it doesn’t show any other complications that could arise.  The fact that a reaction isn’t always immediate (so it may be difficult to trace a child’s regression to the vaccine) does not mean that the vaccine was not the cause of of these immune, neurological, and developmental alterations that we are seeing all too often.

[ Edited: 03 June 2015 02:45 PM by peacegirl ]
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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

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Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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LoisL - 01 June 2015 08:14 PM

Peacegorl said,“The question as to whether vaccines eliminated smallpox and polio is also being refuted.”

So, the fact that the incidence of smallpox and polio droped like a stone after thise vaccines started to be administered was just a coincidence and it was actually sometihng else that was caiusing the drop off! I see.

Anything can be refuted, Peacegirl. Refutations have no bearing on the actual disappearance of a sisease. You’ll have to come up with something better than that.

Meanwhile smallpox and polio remained rampant for years in countries where the vaccines were unavailable, then dropped off when the started becoming available. Can’t figure out why that happened, can you?


LL

Maybe this video will clear things up.  It looks good.  I’m watching it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mDlGCbSBbc

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 02:39 PM

Noooo macgvver, that is a big fat cop-out!

LOL

Peacegirl is in “Noooo” mode now! What a surprise!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 02:39 PM

Did you look at Andrew Wakefield’s video?  I respect this man very much. 

Well this quote pretty much confirms my suspicion that this thread emanates from the twilight zone.

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Posted: 03 June 2015 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 02:49 PM

Maybe this video will clear things up.  It looks good.  I’m watching it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mDlGCbSBbc

Since we’re posting silly videos how about this one. It looks good too.

Funny cat video

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Posted: 03 June 2015 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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macgyver - 03 June 2015 03:32 PM
peacegirl - 03 June 2015 02:49 PM

Maybe this video will clear things up.  It looks good.  I’m watching it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mDlGCbSBbc

Since we’re posting silly videos how about this one. It looks good too.

Funny cat video

Your posting an animal video is a protective mechanism because I think you know that your argument in favor of the present vaccine schedule is deeply flawed.

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 03 June 2015 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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peacegirl - 03 June 2015 03:55 PM

Your posting an animal video is a protective mechanism because I think you know that your argument in favor of the present vaccine schedule is deeply flawed.

OMG you figured me out big surprise

Here’s another Cat Video:

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Posted: 03 June 2015 09:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Peacegirl, the speaker begins with thee ol Galileo Against The World Powers…
Where have I heard that before?  Why do I smell a con man at work?

Besides, this thread was supposed to be about delving into Fisher and that “Hurd Immunity” thing.
How did we get to the intrepid Galileo?


I know that for me one of the things I use to make an assessment about the veracity of a speaker is
are they talking about the promised topic in a systematic rational manner,
that can be countered in a systematic rational manner,
or are they creating mirrors and blowing smoke.

Life has taught me that anyone who starts by comparing himself (or ideas) to Galileo is of the smoke and mirrors variety.

[ Edited: 03 June 2015 10:00 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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