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God ‘s power and the “heavy stone”
Posted: 25 November 2015 03:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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CuthbertJ - 28 August 2015 10:13 AM

Guys. I’m pretty sure this nutcase just posts things to bolster his own ego, not to engage in discussion of any sort. I had him on my Ignore list awhile ago, and decided to take a look at these to see if anything changed. Evidently not. I think I’m gonna coin a term for people who post stuff in forums simply for their own pleasure at posting and seeing their words online…posterbators. And since it’s in public, we can say they engage in public posterbation.

I like it too.

Just one remark. Public posterbation seems a pleonasm to me. I have no idea what non-public posterbation can possibly mean. Except you also include private mailings (e.g. mails from crackpots to physics or philosophy professors and so) in the concept of ‘posting’.

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Posted: 25 November 2015 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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GdB - 25 November 2015 03:16 AM
CuthbertJ - 28 August 2015 10:13 AM

Guys. I’m pretty sure this nutcase just posts things to bolster his own ego, not to engage in discussion of any sort. I had him on my Ignore list awhile ago, and decided to take a look at these to see if anything changed. Evidently not. I think I’m gonna coin a term for people who post stuff in forums simply for their own pleasure at posting and seeing their words online…posterbators. And since it’s in public, we can say they engage in public posterbation.

I like it too.

Just one remark. Public posterbation seems a pleonasm to me. I have no idea what non-public posterbation can possibly mean. Except you also include private mailings (e.g. mails from crackpots to physics or philosophy professors and so) in the concept of ‘posting’.

It’s a redundant pleonasm, an oops-mistake, so to speak-as one might say.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 25 November 2015 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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My last post was primarily for my own amusement, but ostensibly, also, for enjoyment by others.  (I may be a part-time exhibitionist posterbater.)

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 25 November 2015 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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TimB - 25 November 2015 09:53 AM

My last post was primarily for my own amusement, but ostensibly, also, for enjoyment by others.  (I may be a part-time exhibitionist posterbater.)

You see, group posterbation can be amusing as well as informative. In addition to being a possible posterbater myself, sometimes I also enjoy watching other posterbaters. Does that make me a voyeur as well?
Will I go to posterbater hell?

[ Edited: 25 November 2015 05:38 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 25 November 2015 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Write4U - 25 November 2015 02:18 PM
TimB - 25 November 2015 09:53 AM

My last post was primarily for my own amusement, but ostensibly, also, for enjoyment by others.  (I may be a part-time exhibitionist posterbater.)

You see, group posterbation can be amusing as well as informative. Perhaps, in addition to being a posterbater myself, I also enjoy watching the posterbaters. Does that make me a voyeur as well?
Will I go to posterbater hell?

I imagine posterbater hell to be condemnation to an eternity of continually watching C-SPAN with no ability to look away or otherwise respond in any way.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 26 November 2015 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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TimB - 25 November 2015 03:19 PM
Write4U - 25 November 2015 02:18 PM
TimB - 25 November 2015 09:53 AM

My last post was primarily for my own amusement, but ostensibly, also, for enjoyment by others.  (I may be a part-time exhibitionist posterbater.)

You see, group posterbation can be amusing as well as informative. Perhaps, in addition to being a posterbater myself, I also enjoy watching the posterbaters. Does that make me a voyeur as well?
Will I go to posterbater hell?

I imagine posterbater hell to be condemnation to an eternity of continually watching C-SPAN with no ability to look away or otherwise respond in any way.


Precious…...


mocantina.gif

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 26 November 2015 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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C-SPAN huh? Well I can think of about a dozen things worse than C-SPAN so it could be worse.

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Posted: 24 February 2016 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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socratus - 25 June 2015 06:04 AM

Can God make a stone so heavy that He can’t lift it?

My answer is…  yes, He can.
There is no logical contradiction.  There is only a contradiction with the limitation of God to human dogma.  I believe in a God which CAN take risks, makes sacrifices, grant privacy, have faith, and even become a helpless human infant in a particular sector of space-time.

socratus - 25 June 2015 06:04 AM

Why does God need to create such stone?

Because He chooses to value love and freedom more than power and control.

(p.s.  the metaphorical stone is life aka free will)

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Posted: 25 February 2016 01:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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mitchellmckain - 24 February 2016 08:50 PM
socratus - 25 June 2015 06:04 AM

Can God make a stone so heavy that He can’t lift it?

My answer is…  yes, He can.
There is no logical contradiction.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction.

There is only a contradiction with the limitation of God to human dogma.  It should be limited to   I believe in a God which CAN take risks, makes sacrifices, grant privacy, have faith, and even become a helpless human infant in a particular sector of space-time.

OK, lets repose the question this way, *Can God add 1 + 1 and arrive at a number different than 2?  Can God take risks like making a fool of himself by asserting that a pure contradiction in terms is not a contradiction?

socratus - 25 June 2015 06:04 AM

Why does God need to create such stone?

Because He chooses to value love and freedom more than power and control.

No, those are Human values (dogma)

(p.s.  the metaphorical stone is life aka free will)

No, even God has no Free Will. IT always moves in the direction of *Greatest Satisfaction*. There is only Potential, a metaphorical term of; “That which may become Reality”, a hierarchy of fundamental metaphysical truths creating conditions which allow for probabilities to become reality. In the exercise of becoming *real*, contradictions have zero value and zero potential to exist in Reality simultaneously. THERE ARE NO MIRACLES, ONLY PROBABILITIES.

p.s. he probability of life existing elsewhere in the universe is actually very high. We are not the only lifeforms blessed by a God.  What we obserce was inevitable, due to the Mathematical nature of *becoming reality* under the conditions present on Earthlike planets..

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 06:11 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 25 February 2016 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM
mitchellmckain - 24 February 2016 08:50 PM

There is no logical contradiction.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction.

Why?  Because you say so? The burden of proof is on you. You attempt to show the contradiction and I’ll show you which premises you base this on I reject.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

There is only a contradiction with the limitation of God to human dogma.  I believe in a God which CAN take risks, makes sacrifices, grant privacy, have faith, and even become a helpless human infant in a particular sector of space-time.

OK, lets repose the question this way, *Can God add 1 + 1 and arrive at a number different than 2?

No.  Contradictory statements are meaningless referring to nothing therefore they are no counterexample to omnipotence.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

  Can God take risks like making a fool of himself by asserting that a pure contradiction in terms is not a contradiction?

Yes, he can, but it does not mean that He will.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM


No, even God has no Free Will. IT always moves in the direction of *Greatest Satisfaction*.

Free will is not the ability to act counter to one’s own will.  That is nonsensical.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

the probability of life existing elsewhere in the universe is actually very high.

1. High probability is not certainty. 
2. The universe is comparatively young considering all which is required for life as we know it.
3. The Minkowsky structure of space-time means any talk of simultaneity is largely without meaning.  So, we can only really speak meaningfully of the past light cone in which the universe is even younger.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

We are not the only lifeforms blessed by a God.

What does “blessed by God” mean?

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

  What we obserce was inevitable, due to the Mathematical nature of *becoming reality* under the conditions present on Earthlike planets..

I don’t believe that and I certainly do not believe you can demonstrate this as fact.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 06:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 02:49 AM
Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM
mitchellmckain - 24 February 2016 08:50 PM

There is no logical contradiction.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction.

Why?  Because you say so? The burden of proof is on you. You attempt to show the contradiction and I’ll show you which premises you base this on I reject.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

There is only a contradiction with the limitation of God to human dogma.  I believe in a God which CAN take risks, makes sacrifices, grant privacy, have faith, and even become a helpless human infant in a particular sector of space-time.

OK, lets repose the question this way, *Can God add 1 + 1 and arrive at a number different than 2?

No.  Contradictory statements are meaningless referring to nothing therefore they are no counterexample to omnipotence.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

  Can God take risks like making a fool of himself by asserting that a pure contradiction in terms is not a contradiction?

Yes, he can, but it does not mean that He will.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM


No, even God has no Free Will. IT always moves in the direction of *Greatest Satisfaction*.

Free will is not the ability to act counter to one’s own will.  That is nonsensical.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

the probability of life existing elsewhere in the universe is actually very high.

1. High probability is not certainty. 
2. The universe is comparatively young considering all which is required for life as we know it.
3. The Minkowsky structure of space-time means any talk of simultaneity is largely without meaning.  So, we can only really speak meaningfully of the past light cone in which the universe is even younger.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

We are not the only lifeforms blessed by a God.

What does “blessed by God” mean?

Write4U - 25 February 2016 01:48 AM

  What we obserce was inevitable, due to the Mathematical nature of *becoming reality* under the conditions present on Earthlike planets..

I don’t believe that and I certainly do not believe you can demonstrate this as fact.

You have a false understanding of the word *omnipotence*. You better read the following link in its entirety.

OK

The Christians in that newsgroup answered the objection very well. To speak of an almighty God creating an object that He cannot lift is to posit a logically contradictory state of affairs. It is a variation on the old question, “What happens when an immovable object (the stone) meets an irresistible force (God)?” The answer is that both an irresistible force and an immovable object cannot exist together in the same universe without creating a logical contradiction. If reason is valid then to speak of the two in the same sentence is to speak nonsense. Similarly, it is nonsense to speak of God creating a stone that he cannot lift.

http://www.answers.org/apologetics/omnipotence.html

Please note the link where this quote came from..

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 06:09 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 25 February 2016 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

You have a false understanding of the word *omnipotence*. You better read the following link in its entirety.

I do not recognize you as an authority, either on the meaning of words or on the nature of God.  I am not interested in following anybody anywhere.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

OK

The Christians in that newsgroup answered the objection very well. To speak of an almighty God creating an object that He cannot lift is to posit a logically contradictory state of affairs. It is a variation on the old question, “What happens when an immovable object (the stone) meets an irresistible force (God)?” The answer is that both an irresistible force and an immovable object cannot exist together in the same universe without creating a logical contradiction. If reason is valid then to speak of the two in the same sentence is to speak nonsense. Similarly, it is nonsense to speak of God creating a stone that he cannot lift.

That presumes God is incapable of sacrifice or self-limitation and I consider THAT inconsistent with a coherent meaningful understanding of omnipotence.

An omnipotent God is not limited by human dogma, even the one which says God is omnipotent.  An omnipotent God can therefore choose to sacrifice power and control for things He values more, such as love and freedom. It is not a case of the irresistible force which meets an immovable object (which is indeed logically impossible).  For the immovable object to exist any irresistible force must cease to exist.  A truly omnipotent God (rather than the slave of human dogma) can choose to submit Himself to any limitations He chooses, and thus sacrifice His irresistible force in order to create an immovable object. 

Does God then cease to be omnipotent when He does this?  No.  These limitations are an expression of His omnipotence and product of His own will.  While you would chain the will and ability of your god to human dogma, my conception of God makes His will and ability supreme.  While you have this list of things your god cannot do, I have no such list.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Words have meaning. There is no authority that decides what “omnipotence” means, its definition arises out of its usage.

I’ve been where you are, taking little bits of my understanding of the world and putting them in my God box. Adjusting what is God by taking away traditional powers and illogical combinations like all-powerful and all-loving. Eventually that box is full, and it matches the world, and it is useless. You can speed up the process by taking on the big issues, like slavery, or natural disasters that wipe out whole towns, or homosexuality. Religion has done a horrible job of providing context and understanding for these things.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Lausten - 25 February 2016 11:18 AM

Words have meaning. There is no authority that decides what “omnipotence” means, its definition arises out of its usage.

I’ve been where you are, taking little bits of my understanding of the world and putting them in my God box. Adjusting what is God by taking away traditional powers and illogical combinations like all-powerful and all-loving. Eventually that box is full, and it matches the world, and it is useless. You can speed up the process by taking on the big issues, like slavery, or natural disasters that wipe out whole towns, or homosexuality. Religion has done a horrible job of providing context and understanding for these things.

Very very very doubtful.  Impossible even.  People have different backgrounds and different interests and their position on one little issue is no measure at all of any similarity because it isn’t just the position which matters but the reasons.  A person can go back and forth and back and forth on an issue as these reasons shift.

For example…  do you have a masters degree in physics?  If not then considering the enormous time spent on this in my life, any claim that you have been where I am now is preposterous.  What about your upbringing?  Were you raised in some religious tradition?  If so then considering I was not and how much criticism of the Christian establishment saturated my childhood, any claim that you have been where I am is absurd. 

Frankly your claim is a conceit which I cannot even imagine ever indulging in.  That by itself tells me you most certainly never have been where I am now.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 11:38 AM
Lausten - 25 February 2016 11:18 AM

Words have meaning. There is no authority that decides what “omnipotence” means, its definition arises out of its usage.

I’ve been where you are, taking little bits of my understanding of the world and putting them in my God box. Adjusting what is God by taking away traditional powers and illogical combinations like all-powerful and all-loving. Eventually that box is full, and it matches the world, and it is useless. You can speed up the process by taking on the big issues, like slavery, or natural disasters that wipe out whole towns, or homosexuality. Religion has done a horrible job of providing context and understanding for these things.

Very very very doubtful.  Impossible even.  People have different backgrounds and different interests and their position on one little issue is no measure at all of any similarity because it isn’t just the position which matters but the reasons.  A person can go back and forth and back and forth on an issue as these reasons shift.

For example…  do you have a masters degree in physics?  If not then considering the enormous time spent on this in my life, any claim that you have been where I am now is preposterous.  What about your upbringing?  Were you raised in some religious tradition?  If so then considering I was not and how much criticism of the Christian establishment saturated my childhood, any claim that you have been where I am is absurd. 

Frankly your claim is a conceit which I cannot even imagine ever indulging in.  That by itself tells me you most certainly never have been where I am now.

Why did you go there? I am responding to the words you have typed into this forum. I have no other experience of you. You have talked of your religious life (or whatever you want to call it). You have described how you have taken the Christianity that was handed down to you and modified it in an attempt to make it fit the rest of your education and experience. That’s the “there” that I’m talking about. Maybe the conceit is to believe that you are special that I can’t relate to you.

If you must know, I’m an experienced computer programmer. I’ve studied many religions. I found an extremely liberal Christian church and was a member between 1993 and 2010. One side of my family is devout, the other is not. I was raised to think for myself.

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