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God ‘s power and the “heavy stone”
Posted: 25 February 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 11:38 AM
Lausten - 25 February 2016 11:18 AM

Words have meaning. There is no authority that decides what “omnipotence” means, its definition arises out of its usage.

I’ve been where you are, taking little bits of my understanding of the world and putting them in my God box. Adjusting what is God by taking away traditional powers and illogical combinations like all-powerful and all-loving. Eventually that box is full, and it matches the world, and it is useless. You can speed up the process by taking on the big issues, like slavery, or natural disasters that wipe out whole towns, or homosexuality. Religion has done a horrible job of providing context and understanding for these things.

Very very very doubtful.  Impossible even.  People have different backgrounds and different interests and their position on one little issue is no measure at all of any similarity because it isn’t just the position which matters but the reasons.  A person can go back and forth and back and forth on an issue as these reasons shift.

For example…  do you have a masters degree in physics?  If not then considering the enormous time spent on this in my life, any claim that you have been where I am now is preposterous.  What about your upbringing?  Were you raised in some religious tradition?  If so then considering I was not and how much criticism of the Christian establishment saturated my childhood, any claim that you have been where I am is absurd. 

Frankly your claim is a conceit which I cannot even imagine ever indulging in.  That by itself tells me you most certainly never have been where I am now.

Different roads can intersect with the same place.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I replied on the previous page.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 10:40 AM
Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

You have a false understanding of the word *omnipotence*. You better read the following link in its entirety.

I do not recognize you as an authority, either on the meaning of words or on the nature of God.  I am not interested in following anybody anywhere.

And you are an authority on God? Talking about hubris and conceit!

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

OK

The Christians in that newsgroup answered the objection very well. To speak of an almighty God creating an object that He cannot lift is to posit a logically contradictory state of affairs. It is a variation on the old question, “What happens when an immovable object (the stone) meets an irresistible force (God)?” The answer is that both an irresistible force and an immovable object cannot exist together in the same universe without creating a logical contradiction. If reason is valid then to speak of the two in the same sentence is to speak nonsense. Similarly, it is nonsense to speak of God creating a stone that he cannot lift.

That presumes God is incapable of sacrifice or self-limitation and I consider THAT inconsistent with a coherent meaningful understanding of omnipotence.

An omnipotent God is not limited by human dogma, even the one which says God is omnipotent
.  An omnipotent God can therefore choose to sacrifice power and control for things He values more, such as love and freedom. It is not a case of the irresistible force which meets an immovable object (which is indeed logically impossible).  For the immovable object to exist any irresistible force must cease to exist.  A truly omnipotent God (rather than the slave of human dogma) can choose to submit Himself to any limitations He chooses, and thus sacrifice His irresistible force in order to create an immovable object. 

Does God then cease to be omnipotent when He does this?  No.  These limitations are an expression of His omnipotence and product of His own will.  While you would chain the will and ability of your god to human dogma, my conception of God makes His will and ability supreme.  While you have this list of things your god cannot do, I have no such list.

  The highlighted sentence IS a contradiction!

You are missing the point altogether.  NO one has a list of what God cannot do.
There is only one thing God cannot do, and that is logically *contradict* himself at the same time!  That’s it. End of the list.

Whatever wordsalad you can come up with, the fact remains that logical contradictions cannot exist at the same time, unless you want to commit the *blasphemy* of declaring that God can be illogical and contradict his own laws.
Gods laws are immutable, God made them and God is perfect.

Not that I give a hoot. I am an atheist and am merely indulging YOUR illogical HUMAN religious dogma.  Get it?

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 04:49 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 25 February 2016 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Lausten - 25 February 2016 12:57 PM

Why did you go there? I am responding to the words you have typed into this forum. I have no other experience of you. You have talked of your religious life (or whatever you want to call it). You have described how you have taken the Christianity that was handed down to you and modified it in an attempt to make it fit the rest of your education and experience. That’s the “there” that I’m talking about. Maybe the conceit is to believe that you are special that I can’t relate to you.

I made no claim to be special or that you cannot relate to me.  What I find preposterous and arrogant is a claim by ANYONE that they have been where a person they hardly know is now.  It is attitude we see often among the religious towards atheists, and I would say the same thing to them.

Lausten - 25 February 2016 12:57 PM

If you must know, I’m an experienced computer programmer. I’ve studied many religions. I found an extremely liberal Christian church and was a member between 1993 and 2010. One side of my family is devout, the other is not. I was raised to think for myself.

No, I do not see sufficient qualifications for your claim in this.

TimB - 25 February 2016 12:58 PM

Different roads can intersect with the same place.

And as I explained comparing only positions is rather superficial.  Different velocities and directions can mean the two trajectories will never meet again.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 10:40 AM

And you are an authority on God?

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

  These limitations are an expression of His omnipotence and product of His own will
The highlighted sentence IS a contradiction!

No it is not.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

NO one has a list of what God cannot do.

Incorrect.
You say that God cannot create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.  I say He can.
You say God cannot impose limitations upon himself.  I say He can.
There is nothing logically contradictory about imposing limitations on yourself.  I can do it.  But apparently your god (whether you believe in it or not) cannot.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

There is only one thing God cannot do, and that is *contradict* himself at the same time!  That’s it. End of the list.

And there is another one.  I say God CAN contradict Himself if he so chooses.
This is not the same as saying that omnipotence does not includes the ability to do things which are a logical contradictions.  Logical contradictions are meaningless and therefore nothing at all—thus this adds nothing to any list of things God cannot do.

But I repeat.  There is nothing logically contradictory about imposing limitations on yourself.  I can do it—proving it is not logically contradictory.  Example?  I can chop off my right leg thereby taking away my ability to walk.  I can poke out my own eyes thereby limiting myself to sightless darkness.  This proves that limiting oneself is NOT a logical contradiction.  Therefore, there is NOTHING logically contradictory to the claim that God can impose limitations on himself and thus create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

Not that I give a hoot. I am an atheist and am merely indulging YOUR illogical HUMAN religious dogma.  Get it?

You are not the first atheist I have encountered with a dogmatic theology.  Yes I think it is pretty strange.  Habits are hard to get rid of, and habits of thought may be the hardest of all to change.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 05:03 PM

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

You have made up your own theology and appointed yourself sole authority on that theology. I’m with Lausten. There is no sense debating you on this topic.

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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 25 February 2016 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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DarronS - 25 February 2016 05:43 PM
mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 05:03 PM

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

You have made up your own theology and appointed yourself sole authority on that theology. I’m with Lausten. There is no sense debating you on this topic.

Like I said in my introduction, I have three criterion on which I judge beliefs and authority is not one of them.  Once I was assured that the beliefs are logically coherent, consistent with the objective evidence, and compatible with the ideas of a free society, then I wouldn’t see any point in debating them either.  BUT… that would be concession with regards to these three aspects of rationality.  LOL   And then there are things to discuss other than debating whether their beliefs are true.

I couldn’t care less if someone makes up their own theology and appoints themselves the sole authority on what that theology is. Why do you find it such a shocker that someone is the sole authority on what he finds worth believing in.  Isn’t that true of everyone?

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 06:01 PM by mitchellmckain ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 01:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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DarronS - 25 February 2016 05:43 PM
mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 05:03 PM

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

You have made up your own theology and appointed yourself sole authority on that theology. I’m with Lausten. There is no sense debating you on this topic.

Moreover, his entire argument logically falsifies itself.

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Posted: 26 February 2016 02:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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For aome reason, when I read Mitchellmckain’s posts, the word “posterbator” comes into my mind. Arrogant posterbator, actually,

LL

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
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Posted: 26 February 2016 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Write4U - 26 February 2016 01:22 AM
DarronS - 25 February 2016 05:43 PM
mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 05:03 PM

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

You have made up your own theology and appointed yourself sole authority on that theology. I’m with Lausten. There is no sense debating you on this topic.

Moreover, his entire argument logically falsifies itself.

What is this argument which falsifies itself?  All I see established in this thread is that I have a different idea of God than the one you don’t believe in.  So you don’t believe in this god who cannot limit Himself and I don’t believe in that god either. But for some strange reason you aren’t even capable of bracketing a different idea of God.  You are strangely dogmatic and inflexible about something you don’t believe in.

The fact is I have demonstrated there is NOTHING inconsistent in being able to limit oneself and therefore nothing logically inconsistent about a god who can limit himself.  But since it doesn’t fit with your theology of disbelief you indulge in willful ignorance.  I certainly do not require you to believe in any god or show any interest in my beliefs.  But it is willfully ignorant to insist on something which I have actually demonstrated to be false.

Yeah I get it.  You are really proud of being able to take apart some Christian argument you found on a website.  But it is only wishful thinking to imagine you have canned the final answer to every Christian’s understanding of God.  It is really just lazy.  You need to accept the undeniable reality that Christian belief is a vast spectrum.

[ Edited: 26 February 2016 03:35 AM by mitchellmckain ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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LoisL - 26 February 2016 02:55 AM

For aome reason, when I read Mitchellmckain’s posts, the word “posterbator” comes into my mind. Arrogant posterbator, actually,

LL

Ok that’s it!  I am fucking done with this forum!  You can all go to hell!

[ Edited: 26 February 2016 03:40 AM by mitchellmckain ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 05:03 PM
mitchellmckain - 25 February 2016 10:40 AM

And you are an authority on God?

I am the one and only authority on the God I find worth believing in.

Of course, because your God is a creation of your imagination.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

  These limitations are an expression of His omnipotence and product of His own will
The highlighted sentence IS a contradiction!

No it is not.

Yes it is.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

No one has a list of what God cannot do.

Incorrect.
You say that God cannot create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.  I say He can.
You say God cannot impose limitations upon himself.  I say He can.
There is nothing logically contradictory about imposing limitations on yourself.  I can do it.  But apparently your god (whether you believe in it or not) cannot.

Right, God made the laws of Nature and they are perfect. That is why we call them *constants*. It would be illogical for a God to say, “today I am going to change my laws, because it pleases Me to do so.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

There is only one thing God cannot do, and that is *contradict* himself at the same time!  That’s it. End of the list.

And there is another one.  I say God CAN contradict Himself if he so chooses.
This is not the same as saying that omnipotence does not includes the ability to do things which are a logical contradictions.  Logical contradictions are meaningless and therefore nothing at all—thus this adds nothing to any list of things God cannot do.

Logical contradictions are not meaningless. It means that only one action is logically correct and the other false. And it is you who is posing the contradiction. Should I conclude that was a meaningless statement?

But I repeat.  There is nothing logically contradictory about imposing limitations on yourself.  I can do it—proving it is not logically contradictory.  Example?  I can chop off my right leg thereby taking away my ability to walk.  I can poke out my own eyes thereby limiting myself to sightless darkness.  This proves that limiting oneself is NOT a logical contradiction.  Therefore, there is NOTHING logically contradictory to the claim that God can impose limitations on himself and thus create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

  If your leg has gangrene, the logical thing to do is to cut it off, whereas cutting a healthy leg off has nothing to do with limiting oneself, in fact it would be an indication of unlimited madness.

Write4U - 25 February 2016 06:03 AM

Not that I give a hoot. I am an atheist and am merely indulging YOUR illogical HUMAN religious dogma.  Get it?

You are not the first atheist I have encountered with a dogmatic theology.  Yes I think it is pretty strange.  Habits are hard to get rid of, and habits of thought may be the hardest of all to change.

I don’t have a theology of any kind, therefore I have no theological dogma. Why don’t you look into the mirror and ask yourself that question.

[ Edited: 26 February 2016 06:24 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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mitchellmckain - 26 February 2016 03:37 AM
LoisL - 26 February 2016 02:55 AM

For aome reason, when I read Mitchellmckain’s posts, the word “posterbator” comes into my mind. Arrogant posterbator, actually,

LL

Ok that’s it!  I am fucking done with this forum!  You can all go to hell!

Aw. I feel like we should sing a song or something. I hope he learned something from this encounter. I know he hates this, but I can also relate to what seems to have set off. There’s a point in your letting of god(s) where you think you’ve come up with something that works, something that you can argue for and sound like you got it figured out, or least it’s good enough that people should really try to understand you. I started my blog at that point. I kept trying to figure out those arguments. Then I figured out how logic and reasoning actually worked, and argued myself right of out of religion.

The place to start, if you’re still around Mitch, is not what God can or can’t do, start with A=A, and Not A can’t equal A. It’s the beginning of logic. Build your worldview starting there.

[ Edited: 26 February 2016 07:32 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 27 February 2016 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Lausten - 26 February 2016 07:21 PM

Aw. I feel like we should sing a song or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsV-rQ23bus

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Posted: 27 February 2016 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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DarronS - 27 February 2016 02:49 PM
Lausten - 26 February 2016 07:21 PM

Aw. I feel like we should sing a song or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsV-rQ23bus

VERY nice selection.  It would have been SO much more elegant if Mitch had presented that song as his goodbye to the forum, rather than simply saying ” I am fucking done with this forum!  You can all go to hell!”

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