What laws need to be separated from religion?
Posted: 17 August 2015 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Or perhaps an inverse question- What religions need to be separated from Laws?? or maybe a rewrite of Laws in general?? perhaps a rewrite of Human Culture in general…..... How could we do any of that?

Well as long as we have current democratic egalitarian constitutional governmental structures those persons who embrace supernatural patriarchal based authoritative beliefs will always be able to out vote those of us who embrace our lives as being part and product of a Natural Existence that is a closed system. ‘Closed system being all that there is is part and product of Natural Forces….........

How can secularists wrestle the vote from those who deny their Natural Existence here on Earth as their only existence and based on supernatural spirit based birth? An answer lies in the idea of ‘Citizenship’ or being a citizen - in this case a citizen of Earth and our Earthly Natural Existence.

Let me use Christianity as an example tho in general this can be applied to any philosophy that one embraces that denies ones Natural Existence as a part & product of the forces of Nature vs spiritualism/supernaturalism.

Now I’ve always had a problem with some abstract invention of the Human Mind (i.e. a political structure like the United States of America or any political institution on the globe; or God the Father, etc) claiming ownership of me from the moment I exit the womb! A foreigner can choose to become a citizen of the USA for example but that choice is denied me because of geographical location of my birth?! The USA automatically claims that I am a citizen along with anyone else born within its political boundaries.

Instead, I think a government based on a Value of our Natural Existence - a secular government - should have varying degrees of ‘Citizenship’. And that only when, for example, a person reaches a certain age of adulthood they can be invited to choose to join such a secular state as a citizen acknowledging their Earthly existence. As a part of this acknowledgement they may perhaps be invited eventually to enjoy Full Citizenship having a voting privilege.

If they choose to embrace some supernatural realm as their definition of existence - in essence denying their Earthly existence; in essence denying their Natural Existence; in reality denying their Existence as a Citizen of Earth…......

WHY SHOULD THEY BE GIVEN THE ‘Right’ to vote?????? No country on Earth has ever given non-citizens any democratic voice or vote!

Rather such persons should be treated as Resident Aliens. Mind you not with disrespect nor in any inhumane fashion but after the way any resident alien is treated today in the USA for example. BUT if they choose to use their supernatural belief structure in a subversively criminal fashion such persons should be deported to the country they claim as their origin.

One way we as both Naturalists & Secularists can take back our Earth from those of supernatural & spiritual realms who have stolen & usurped it from us….......

I ain’t sayin folks…...........I’m just sayin!
Thanx…......INTJohn (aka John Doornbos)

[ Edited: 18 August 2015 02:16 AM by INTJohn ]
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Posted: 23 August 2015 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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This idea reflects the same kind of bigotry that inspires nasty apostasy laws.

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Posted: 23 August 2015 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 23 August 2015 09:20 AM

This idea reflects the same kind of bigotry that inspires nasty apostasy laws.

TromboneAndrew - 23 August 2015 09:20 AM

This idea reflects the same kind of bigotry that inspires nasty apostasy laws.

I completely disagree. Resident aliens live & thrive in a very humanistic fashion across the Untied States and in many other countries. Many of my best friends are not citizens of the USA - they live their lives and enjoy ALL of the basic freedom & civil rights that all Citiizens enjoy here in USA; including voicing their opinions to elected officials. They simply do not have the so-called ‘Right’ to vote because they are not ‘citizens’.

IF the Secularists are serious about ridding spiritulism & supernaturalism from every culture here on Earth they must begin somewhere; but the question still stands Why Should persons who deny their Earthly Existence have a ‘right’ to vote?

......and as I wrote previous let me use Chrisitianity as an example. The Chrisitan Bible has as one of its main theme that Christians are not Earthly Citizens:
Matthew       6: 19-24; 12:30
Luke           11:23; 16:13
John           8:23; 15:19; 17:14-19
Romans       12:2
Ephesians     2: 19-22
Colossians     2:8
James         4:4
1 John         2:15-16

There are numerous other passages of common theme that leave no other conclusion except that those who embrace the Christian Faith deny thier Earthly Existence in favour of some spiritual,supernatural place, land country. Therefore they are not Citizens and therefore should have no voting priviledge. .......And as the above Chrisitan bible passages show ‘dual citizenship’ is NO Option for the Christian! The other major worlds religions are essentially similar.

So as Secularists how does one go about taking our Earth back from these ‘Believers’ in the Authority of the supernatural?? The first thing we must realize is that they themselves claim they ‘are not of this world’. And we need to begin to treat them as the Resident Aliens they themselves directly or indirectly claim to be!

Thanx…......INTJohn (aka John Doornbos)

[ Edited: 23 August 2015 01:05 PM by INTJohn ]
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Posted: 23 August 2015 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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That’s a very weird and convoluted way to argue that someone denies they’re from Earth. Even if they did believe the extreme nonsense you’re describing, we still give citizenship to people with mental disorders who believe they’re from other planets. This is very much in theme with someplace like Iran denying the right to vote to non-Muslims.

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Posted: 24 August 2015 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I agree with Andrew.  Freedom of beliefs means just that. Just as separation of church and state does. I think our current resurgence of fanaticism, intolerance and reactionaries has much more to do with our taking our eye off the latter rule - which has allowed the fundamentalists, etc., to rewrite our schoolbooks - and proselytize the more naive sort of citizens to death.

That said, I’ve also come to believe that taking religion entirely out of our schoolbooks is not a good solution either. I say this, having lived half my life in the States, and half in Europe. In Europe, the kids ARE taught about
all the major religions - their origins, beliefs and the headlines of their history, at least - and not JUST Christianity. Judaism and Islam get equal time. For one reason, the history of the western world cannot be rightly
understood without it. But even better, Europeans are far less naive and vulnerable with this overview than without it. Than we tend to be, I’d add. The explanations are simple, straightforward and neutral. They offend no one, that I’ve ever heard complain. It also greatly decreases fears of the mysterious “others”  - something we could use a huge dose of in America, it seems, just from reading papers, listening to ‘opinions’ on the internet - and in real life.  Knowledge is power.

As for voting rules though, I would be for having to pass a test to prove you know at least the basics as to how the country works and its laws - much like the one we give immigrants who want to become citizens. Just like you have to pass a driving test to get your licence.  That should cut back on some of the idiocies at least.

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Posted: 16 April 2016 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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INTjohn posted

Or perhaps an inverse question- What religions need to be separated from Laws?? or maybe a rewrite of Laws in general?? perhaps a rewrite of Human Culture in general…..... How could we do any of that?

Only two of the ten commandments are law and that is because they are secular laws, which was properly recognized by the scribes.

But after seeing the most recent Bill Maher episode, I am astounded at religious exemptions from law. One major example is tax-free status of hundreds of billions of dollars worth of *protected* assets, as well as any church related *income*.

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Posted: 16 April 2016 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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There was some interesting history on that in the “Godless Constitution” by Isaac Kramnick and Laurence Moore (the 2005 edition which has a chapter added on George W. Bush), if I’m not mistaken.  It used to be that they got advantages, and even funding sometimes, for needed charity work. But only if they did not discriminate on the basis of religion, or lack thereof.  Nor could they use any funding for proselytizing. But all that changed under Bush who used those initiatives to push and fund evangelical agendas,
and a whole lot of proselytizing - to the tune of some $25 million dollars worth.

I’ll look for the Maher episode though. Thanks for the tip!

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Posted: 30 June 2016 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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INTJohn is long gone, but gk was right on top of this!

I argued with a bad apologist a few years ago. He came up with the analogy of a boys basketball tournament that didn’t exclude girl teams, but did not allow individual girls to play with the boys to gain experience. He was comparing this to how a supernatural explanation is not allowed to be taken seriously in a scientific setting. Horrible argument obviously, but I tried to tell him there was a time when using logic to question gods would get you burned at the stake. If logic and reason are going to continue to rule the day, we can never use them to discriminate. It leads to the “Hitler used evolution to kill Jews therefore evolution is wrong” type of arguments.

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