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Why Alternative Med Section?
Posted: 24 February 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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mitchellmckain - 24 February 2016 11:27 AM
blackorwat - 19 February 2016 03:16 PM

There is harm with alternative medicine.  Just a few examples:

http://whatstheharm.net/
https://health.spectator.co.uk/the-evidence-shows-that-chiropractors-do-more-harm-than-good/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26881570

In addition there is financial harm.  People waste money to substitute medicine with alternative treatments.  Also in the UK for example tax payers’ money goes to crap like homeopathy. 

There is also societal harm in that many alternative practitioners can be anti-anything-that-is-not-natural including vaccines.  I used to go to a chiropractor who told me the body should be able to heal itself and that vaccines are not necessary. 

No harm?  Check this out: http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

The issue is that there are people that should not be giving medical advice, and sometimes they give bad and just outright wrong information to people.  Bad information and deception is not without its consequences.

My post makes it clear that there is potential for harm, but he burden of proof is on those making the accusation in each case.  I can just as easily point to people harmed in scientific medicine and these are dealt with in the same manner with the same burden of proof.

Your economic argument falls completely flat in my case because I am in a different country where the medical costs are so debilitating half the times I have turned to it has been a terrible mistake.  So much so that, medical professional = economic vampire, is the unavoidable lesson of my experience.

Would I support the kind of socialized medicine you have in your country?  Damn straight I would!

What country are you in?

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 24 February 2016 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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United States

I assumed blackorwat was UK because one of the links he used was a UK site.

[ Edited: 24 February 2016 07:19 PM by mitchellmckain ]
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Posted: 25 February 2016 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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mitchellmckain - 24 February 2016 07:16 PM

United States

I assumed blackorwat was UK because one of the links he used was a UK site.

Nope.  I am in the US as well. 

You are right that medical care is quite expensive.  And trust me, I know a little bit about the economic argument.  My mom has been doing alternative treatments all her life with very little or no results, and since most of it is not covered by insurance, she has wasted tons of money.  Was harm done?  Yep.  She is basically paranoid about anything chemical related and this has affected her physical and psychological health. 

My dad who had lung cancer was preyed on by an alternative practitioner, who did nothing to save his life.  Yes, he died.  And yes that was expensive as hell. 

By the way, why would I spend money on an unproven or even disproven treatment EVEN IF it was cheaper?  Doesn’t make sense.

Sure, scientific medicine sucks sometimes.  But its better than the rest. 

You talk about burden of proof.  Remember, this falls straight on the alternative medicine practitioners who make the claims that they make.  What have they given us in terms of proof for their practices?  Remember they are the ones that need to prove that their treatments are safe and effective before they practice them.  Why should I have to prove harm is done, if they can’t even prove their stuff is safe and effective in the first place?  By the way, the links I posted earlier does show that harm can be done.

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 03:02 PM by blackorwat ]
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Posted: 25 February 2016 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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blackorwat - 25 February 2016 02:51 PM

Sure, scientific medicine sucks sometimes.  But its better than the rest. 

Now with that I do agree.  When it works, it works good!

In addition to the failures I also had surgery to remove an appendix and a surgery to fix two hernias.  I have no complaints in these two cases at all.


I guess I would add that it is the failures on both side that keep us challenging what needs to be challenged so to put them in their proper place.  For much of alternative medicine that place is in the same category as religion.

[ Edited: 25 February 2016 05:49 PM by mitchellmckain ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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There is a Naturopathic Doctor (ND) in my town and the ridiculous part of claims to healings is that how would an ND know if something was healed or cured or not? She claims she has cured cancer, but typically the only way to verify or know if a treatment (of any kind, not just cancer) would require medical workup in the way of radiographic imaging, blood tests, pathology or cytology results—an ND does not have access to such things and cannot even order them to be performed (to my knowledge), so the big question is how would an ND ever know if their method worked or failed? Do they just guess?

I have no issue with “all natural” stores that sell vitamins and all natural products (I go to the store where the ND works) to buy environmentally friendly cleaners and I know other people who go just to get vitamins if recommended by an MD. I also think there is a market for all natural foods. I think the direction of naturopathy should be to promote a healthy or natural lifestyle (foods, environmentally friendly cleaners), but not attempt to practice medicine. I just wish she would stop acting as a pseudo doctor, but otherwise she’s got a unique little shop.

[ Edited: 26 February 2016 06:14 AM by FinallyDecided ]
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Posted: 26 February 2016 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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FinallyDecided - 26 February 2016 06:07 AM

There is a Naturopathic Doctor (ND) in my town and the ridiculous part of claims to healings is that how would an ND know if something was healed or cured or not? She claims she has cured cancer, but typically the only way to verify or know if a treatment (of any kind, not just cancer) would require medical workup in the way of radiographic imaging, blood tests, pathology or cytology results—an ND does not have access to such things and cannot even order them to be performed (to my knowledge), so the big question is how would an ND ever know if their method worked or failed? Do they just guess?

I have no issue with “all natural” stores that sell vitamins and all natural products (I go to the store where the ND works) to buy environmentally friendly cleaners and I know other people who go just to get vitamins if recommended by an MD. I also think there is a market for all natural foods. I think the direction of naturopathy should be to promote a healthy or natural lifestyle (foods, environmentally friendly cleaners), but not attempt to practice medicine. I just wish she would stop acting as a pseudo doctor, but otherwise she’s got a unique little shop.

Probably the key problem is that Naturopathy isn’t based on science and evidence to begin with.  It seems to be more of an ideology, and when you have an ideology stuff just works “cause I said so.”  Now, to be fair, I am not saying they don’t have anything useful to offer.  As you said, if they would just promote a healthy lifestyle, that could be quite helpful. 

I also find “natural” grocery stores to be helpful for certain products, but its annoying that they also are a hotbed for woo.

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