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Music next to godliness?
Posted: 22 April 2016 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

Well, that makes the plant experiment even more remarkable, no?  They did prefer Mozart over That Heavy Metal band.

Swaying in the breeze over head banging - I can dig it       cool smile

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Posted: 22 April 2016 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

But the mathematics of music run deeper than just creativity. (assuming competency), it is a true natural language.

watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtAFiI39_I

At first it may not seem related, but it will address the question music and it’s harmonic properties.

While it’s true that great music just about always has deep mathematical components, that doesn’t mean that any given music is a universal language. Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true. As an analogy: English has nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc., which are universal components of spoken languages, but English is not a universal language because it contains these elements. There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music.

One element of music which does seem to be universal is a musical intent to increase or decrease intensity. People from all cultures will agree when some music gets more or less intense - but as for greater details (more happy, more sad, more gross, etc.) how people interpret music seems to be entirely dependent on cultural context.

Interestingly, although music as dance accompaniment is extremely common, I don’t think it’s universal.

That said, using mathematical tools creatively to increase the subtlety and intensity of these musical intents can be a lot of fun. smile

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Posted: 22 April 2016 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Do you think that a minor chord could sound happier than a major chord, in any culture?

[ Edited: 23 April 2016 12:13 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 April 2016 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Write4U - 22 April 2016 06:18 PM

Do you think that a minor chord could sound happier than a major chord, in any culture?

My thought is that emotions are common to all humans.  And that music is a (sort of) language of emotion.  Culture (and personal exposures and experiences) could conceivably (and probably does) influence this to some degree for individuals, but my guess is that, generally speaking, music would have a similar effect for persons regardless of culture.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 22 April 2016 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Write4U - 22 April 2016 06:18 PM

Do you think that a minor chord could sound happier than a major chord, in any culture?

That’s even true in our culture. Many examples abound of sad songs in major keys and happy songs in minor keys.

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Posted: 22 April 2016 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

... Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true… There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music…

One element of music which does seem to be universal is a musical intent to increase or decrease intensity. People from all cultures will agree when some music gets more or less intense - but as for greater details (more happy, more sad, more gross, etc.) how people interpret music seems to be entirely dependent on cultural context.

As a universal (sort of) language of emotion,  I think the best analogy would be that of elicited non-verbal expressions of emotion (e.g., facial expressions, body language, and any outwardly apparent elicited physical bodily reaction to whatever stimulus.)

(I could be wrong about music being a universal (sort of) language.  So please feel free to challenge this.  I would like to know if I am wrong.)

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 23 April 2016 12:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I was not talkingabout specific melodies.  I was thinking more of human response to chordal harmonics.

IMO, a minor chord will sound sad, a 7th elicits an expectation of resolution, and a major chord is a happy sound and used as thge resolution to a 7th.

It is the composition (combination) of these chords that create the emotional response. Tension and release.

a few beautiful examples of the use of these chords and emotional response can be found in these examples:
*Django* (in memory of Django Reinhardt)  by the Modern Jazz Quartet; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z88Vc1oyvU

and a live performance of Estate, by Michel Petrucciani which is irresistibly romantic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPuiDrXp2XA

and for a bonus, this also performed by Chet Baker . His tone is like velvet, and has a positive emotional response in me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQD1wJtkkU8

If the music is mathematically compelling the brain to have a similar shared emparthic response of an rare event, it might be called a form of language, IMO..

[ Edited: 23 April 2016 01:19 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 23 April 2016 01:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 22 April 2016 07:46 PM
Write4U - 22 April 2016 06:18 PM

Do you think that a minor chord could sound happier than a major chord, in any culture?

That’s even true in our culture. Many examples abound of sad songs in major keys and happy songs in minor keys.

small correction; minor = sad , major = happy . Is that what you meant to say?

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Posted: 23 April 2016 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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TimB - 22 April 2016 08:10 PM
Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

... Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true… There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music…

As a universal (sort of) language of emotion,  I think the best analogy would be that of elicited non-verbal expressions of emotion (e.g., facial expressions, body language, and any outwardly apparent elicited physical bodily reaction to whatever stimulus.)

(I could be wrong about music being a universal (sort of) language.  So please feel free to challenge this.  I would like to know if I am wrong.)

I agree, music is a mathematical emotional language and its effects are a product of our mirror neural network.

This may be of interest: The *Catconcerto*  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeoT66v4EHg

[ Edited: 23 April 2016 02:05 PM by Write4U ]
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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 23 April 2016 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Write4U - 23 April 2016 01:44 PM
TimB - 22 April 2016 08:10 PM
Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

... Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true… There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music…

As a universal (sort of) language of emotion,  I think the best analogy would be that of elicited non-verbal expressions of emotion (e.g., facial expressions, body language, and any outwardly apparent elicited physical bodily reaction to whatever stimulus.)

(I could be wrong about music being a universal (sort of) language.  So please feel free to challenge this.  I would like to know if I am wrong.)

I agree, music is a mathematical emotional language and its effects are a product of our mirror neural network.

This may be of interest: The *Catconcerto*  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeoT66v4EHg

Hmm.  She’s not just pussy footing around.  (And everyone thinks Prince was such a musical genius.)

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Posted: 24 April 2016 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Tim, a little aside; your quote of

Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

... Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true… There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music…

is incorrect.  TromboneAndrew was the author of that POV.

I agree to some degree as far as actual musical composition is concerned, but I believe there are some sound waves (or combinations) which elicit a common emotional response in all people,and perhaps in other mammals as well, regardless of culture.

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 24 April 2016 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Write4U - 23 April 2016 01:01 AM
TromboneAndrew - 22 April 2016 07:46 PM
Write4U - 22 April 2016 06:18 PM

Do you think that a minor chord could sound happier than a major chord, in any culture?

That’s even true in our culture. Many examples abound of sad songs in major keys and happy songs in minor keys.

small correction; minor = sad , major = happy . Is that what you meant to say?

Nope.

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Posted: 25 April 2016 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Write4U - 24 April 2016 01:18 AM

Tim, a little aside; your quote of

Write4U - 21 April 2016 11:37 PM

... Music as a universal language is a pretty common saying, but I don’t think it’s true… There are a lot of examples of people hearing unknown music and not being moved by it all, not recognizing any of it in their learned repertoire of sounds associated with music…

is incorrect.  TromboneAndrew was the author of that POV.

I agree to some degree as far as actual musical composition is concerned, but I believe there are some sound waves (or combinations) which elicit a common emotional response in all people,and perhaps in other mammals as well, regardless of culture.

Sorry.  I hate when posters screw up and mis-attribute quotes to the wrong person.  And here I made that mistake.  Forgive me, Write and Trombone.  I will not try to edit/correct the original mistake at this point as it might just cause further confusion.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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