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Existentialism
Posted: 25 April 2016 07:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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It seems like all about “me” and not giving a damn about others.

Also what about neitzche?

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Posted: 25 April 2016 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Titanomachina - 25 April 2016 07:53 PM

It seems like all about “me” and not giving a damn about others.

Then you are wrong. I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on existentialism, and follow the link Lausten provided. If you have questions, just ask.

Titanomachina - 25 April 2016 07:53 PM

Also what about neitzche?

Here I also suggest to read Wikipedia. If you do not find any article about ‘neitzche’, then I suppose you are not ready to read about him.

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Posted: 26 April 2016 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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GdB - 25 April 2016 10:14 PM
Titanomachina - 25 April 2016 07:53 PM

It seems like all about “me” and not giving a damn about others.

Then you are wrong. I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on existentialism, and follow the link Lausten provided. If you have questions, just ask.

Titanomachina - 25 April 2016 07:53 PM

Also what about neitzche?

Here I also suggest to read Wikipedia. If you do not find any article about ‘neitzche’, then I suppose you are not ready to read about him.

I think I see why people don’t take it seriously. It just uses a lot of subjective terms and doesn’t really take you anywhere when it comes to understanding people. I mean authenticity is the vaguest term I have ever heard and they don’t describe what it means, or how one can be sure they have found it.

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Posted: 26 April 2016 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Titanomachina - 26 April 2016 11:14 AM

I think I see why people don’t take it seriously. It just uses a lot of subjective terms and doesn’t really take you anywhere when it comes to understanding people. I mean authenticity is the vaguest term I have ever heard and they don’t describe what it means, or how one can be sure they have found it.

If you have really no idea what authenticity is, I understand why you have so many problems. Authenticity is highly related with psychological health; a lack of it with depression.

I don’t know what is unclear:

In existentialism, authenticity is the degree to which one is true to one’s own personality, spirit, or character, despite external pressures; the conscious self is seen as coming to terms with being in a material world and with encountering external forces, pressures, and influences which are very different from, and other than, itself. A lack of authenticity is considered in existentialism to be bad faith.

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Posted: 26 April 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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GdB - 26 April 2016 11:26 AM
Titanomachina - 26 April 2016 11:14 AM

I think I see why people don’t take it seriously. It just uses a lot of subjective terms and doesn’t really take you anywhere when it comes to understanding people. I mean authenticity is the vaguest term I have ever heard and they don’t describe what it means, or how one can be sure they have found it.

If you have really no idea what authenticity is, I understand why you have so many problems. Authenticity is highly related with psychological health; a lack of it with depression.

I don’t know what is unclear:

In existentialism, authenticity is the degree to which one is true to one’s own personality, spirit, or character, despite external pressures; the conscious self is seen as coming to terms with being in a material world and with encountering external forces, pressures, and influences which are very different from, and other than, itself. A lack of authenticity is considered in existentialism to be bad faith.

Your link is broken.

There is no such thing as authenticity because there is no “you”. People are a product of their environment and biology. There is nothing one can call “oneself” or “I” and that is where existentialism fails. You can’t be true when there is nothing to be true to, your will is not your own and never was. Things like that. Any notion of an “authentic self” is an illusion.

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Posted: 26 April 2016 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Titanomachina - 26 April 2016 11:52 AM

Your link is broken.

Yep. But I thought you would find what to look for. It is just 2 clicks from the point my link brings you. I am not responsible for the shortcomings of the http-protocol.

Titanomachina - 26 April 2016 11:52 AM

There is no such thing as authenticity because there is no “you”. People are a product of their environment and biology. There is nothing one can call “oneself” or “I” and that is where existentialism fails. You can’t be true when there is nothing to be true to, your will is not your own and never was. Things like that. Any notion of an “authentic self” is an illusion.

Hammer philosophy.

Why would people being a product of their environment and biology mean that being authentic has no meaning? Please explain.

And of course ‘I’ and ‘oneself’ exist. You only should not see these as separate, independent, and unchangeable entities. Trying to find a characteristic self independent of how you became what you are now is of course not possible. But that does not mean that you do not have your preferences, fears and character traits now.

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Posted: 27 April 2016 12:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Because being a product of what’s around you means that there is nothing you about “you”. You are just an echo of your past, that’s what the self is. Just a story we repeat every day that doesn’t exist in the end. Thas why words like “true self” and phrases like “to thy own self be true” are meaningless because there is no you to be true to. It’s just an illusion.

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Posted: 27 April 2016 01:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 12:08 AM

Because being a product of what’s around you means that there is nothing you about “you”. You are just an echo of your past, that’s what the self is. Just a story we repeat every day that doesn’t exist in the end. Thas why words like “true self” and phrases like “to thy own self be true” are meaningless because there is no you to be true to. It’s just an illusion.

So whatever I say about you, about your preferences, fears and character traits, it is all true? You do not hate to do certain things, and love to do others? If I force you to do something that you hate doing, e.g. by threatening you, Is that action then not less authentic for you than something that you do because you like it?

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Posted: 27 April 2016 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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GdB - 27 April 2016 01:30 AM
Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 12:08 AM

Because being a product of what’s around you means that there is nothing you about “you”. You are just an echo of your past, that’s what the self is. Just a story we repeat every day that doesn’t exist in the end. Thas why words like “true self” and phrases like “to thy own self be true” are meaningless because there is no you to be true to. It’s just an illusion.

So whatever I say about you, about your preferences, fears and character traits, it is all true? You do not hate to do certain things, and love to do others? If I force you to do something that you hate doing, e.g. by threatening you, Is that action then not less authentic for you than something that you do because you like it?

It’s all the same.

As I said there is no such thing as authenticity. People can eventually with time learn to like things. But they want to hold onto the notion of an solid core because they fear change. Well more to the point they don’t as long as there is something solid they can hold onto (part of the reason I think we build homes and structure society as such). When they have no control they fall into despair. That’s why existentialists want there to be an authentic self, because they recognize other things as flux so they need a holdfast to anchor them. Sadly there is no such thing.

You can force me to do something and I can change to like it. It happens. The self is just as fluctuating as everything else we know. There is no part of you that is you. You are different from a week, month, etc ago. So with something so unstable and changing what can you call “you”? Nothing. Everything you are is an echo of your experience. Ideas, morals, even likes. Nothing is authentic, it’s all “fake”.

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Posted: 27 April 2016 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 11:09 AM

It’s all the same.

So something you do because of fear is the same as doing something you do because you like it, or because you think it is the moral correct thing to do?

Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 11:09 AM

As I said there is no such thing as authenticity.

Yes, you said that. But you still did not make the point why this is so.

Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 11:09 AM

People can eventually with time learn to like things. But they want to hold onto the notion of an solid core because they fear change. Well more to the point they don’t as long as there is something solid they can hold onto (part of the reason I think we build homes and structure society as such). When they have no control they fall into despair. That’s why existentialists want there to be an authentic self, because they recognize other things as flux so they need a holdfast to anchor them. Sadly there is no such thing.

Yes. You could be an existentialist (at least an ‘arm chair existentialist’), saying all this. At the same time you display exactly what you are writing: you fear to change your view, because you are afraid to commit yourself. Sartre could write an interesting story about you! You are a role model for somebody in an existential crisis. Existentialists do not provide easy answers, as you suggest here.

Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 11:09 AM

You can force me to do something and I can change to like it. It happens. The self is just as fluctuating as everything else we know. There is no part of you that is you. You are different from a week, month, etc ago. So with something so unstable and changing what can you call “you”? Nothing. Everything you are is an echo of your experience. Ideas, morals, even likes. Nothing is authentic, it’s all “fake”.

Well, who is writing this when it is not you?

And you make the same error over an over again: because ‘you’ can change, you think it cannot be authentic. That is just not true. Being authentic has to do with your desires and aspirations at this moment. ‘Being authentic’ does not mean that you do not change, e.g. because you are getting older, get new insights, meet new people etc; it also does not mean that there is some real ‘you’ in the core. It is all about accepting your inner desires, about overcoming your fears to commit yourself to the world.

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Posted: 27 April 2016 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I have changed from believing there is an authentic self to there not being one.

It is “me” writing this.

Being authentic is not about your desires and aspirations in the present moment. In fact it can’t be because those very same things are not yours. They are just an echo from your environment. You get them from people who get them from others, etc.

There isn’t anything authentic about you. We humans are little more than copies of others.

Your will is not your own, neither are your thoughts. In a sense we are all fakes, because the self is just an illusion. It’s a mask people put on.

You speak about overcoming, but the one thing you don’t get is that you have to overcome the notion that there is a you to be true to. There isn’t, it doesn’t exist. It’s just an illusion woven by the mind, a narrative to tell over and over again. There’s nothing authentic about it. It’s just an imitation of what we experience.

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Posted: 28 April 2016 01:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Right. There is nothing authentic in your desires and aspirations taken on its own. But somebody is authentic when he acts and speaks according to them, instead of keeping them hidden because of fear or strategical reasons. To be authentic just does not mean ‘born from nothing’.

And that has nothing to do with ‘you’ not existing as an uninfluenced, never changing object.

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Posted: 28 April 2016 04:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I know there is a proper name for Tita’s fallacy, but I call it the “it’s just” fallacy. It happens when you see something about a thing then say that thing is “just” that. So, humans are “just” copies of other humans. Well, we’re certainly no perfect copies, we’re different from any other type of copy I know of. Or, we’re just products of our environment. Sure, but we’re a unique product. I could go on.

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Posted: 28 April 2016 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Lausten - 28 April 2016 04:25 AM

I know there is a proper name for Tita’s fallacy, but I call it the “it’s just” fallacy. It happens when you see something about a thing then say that thing is “just” that. So, humans are “just” copies of other humans. Well, we’re certainly no perfect copies, we’re different from any other type of copy I know of. Or, we’re just products of our environment. Sure, but we’re a unique product. I could go on.

Hmm, yes. If one highlight the ‘just’s, there are quite a few in Titanomachina’s posts:

Titanomachina - 27 April 2016 11:45 PM

I have changed from believing there is an authentic self to there not being one.

It is “me” writing this.

Being authentic is not about your desires and aspirations in the present moment. In fact it can’t be because those very same things are not yours. They are just an echo from your environment. You get them from people who get them from others, etc.

There isn’t anything authentic about you. We humans are little more than copies of others.

Your will is not your own, neither are your thoughts. In a sense we are all fakes, because the self is just an illusion. It’s a mask people put on.

You speak about overcoming, but the one thing you don’t get is that you have to overcome the notion that there is a you to be true to. There isn’t, it doesn’t exist. It’s just an illusion woven by the mind, a narrative to tell over and over again. There’s nothing authentic about it. It’s just an imitation of what we experience.

In the end, a steam locomotive ist just steel, coal and water. And we never see steel, coal and water move along railways, don’t we?

[ Edited: 28 April 2016 07:00 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 28 April 2016 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Lausten - 28 April 2016 04:25 AM

I know there is a proper name for Tita’s fallacy, but I call it the “it’s just” fallacy. It happens when you see something about a thing then say that thing is “just” that. So, humans are “just” copies of other humans. Well, we’re certainly no perfect copies, we’re different from any other type of copy I know of. Or, we’re just products of our environment. Sure, but we’re a unique product. I could go on.

Well we aren’t unique products and some people very well are copies of others.

Humans are less unique then they believe themselves to be.

Is not really a fallacy because that’s just what humans are. Copies of each other with the illusion of individuality.

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