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Existentialism
Posted: 28 April 2016 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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GdB - 28 April 2016 01:31 AM

Right. There is nothing authentic in your desires and aspirations taken on its own. But somebody is authentic when he acts and speaks according to them, instead of keeping them hidden because of fear or strategical reasons. To be authentic just does not mean ‘born from nothing’.

And that has nothing to do with ‘you’ not existing as an uninfluenced, never changing object.

What if acting against them is what is right? Also how can you know if those desires and aspirations are your own? You know how easily influenced people are, you could just be following someone else’s desire and aspiration, and the same for them, etc.

And assuming there is such a thing as being authentic, why is it good? People seem to do well when they are anything but themselves, it’s how society functions, it’s how people function. What if being authentic is just a trap?

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Posted: 28 April 2016 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Titanomachina - 28 April 2016 08:52 AM

What if acting against them is what is right?

What if it is? So?

Also how can you know if those desires and aspirations are your own? You know how easily influenced people are, you could just be following someone else’s desire and aspiration, and the same for them, etc.

So what would be the alternative to this?

And assuming there is such a thing as being authentic, why is it good?

On a academic scale here, usually humans consider subterfuge, dishonesty, falsifications as bad.
It probably has to do with our communication system we use socially.
That’s not to say that subterfuge doesn’t have benefits. It can. It is used successfully.
But that’s part of a complicated social communication system we have evolved.
And in that nutshell….“authenticity”(a stupid semantic problem for this discussion) has not been violated.
There’s where you are mostly correct. And it’s why “authenticity” is a dumb word.
Everything is authentic. Even fake things are authentic. Someone fighting against “authenticity” is being authentic.


People seem to do well when they are anything but themselves, it’s how society functions, it’s how people function. What if being authentic is just a trap?

This is all redundant and reflective of your own personal foibles.

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Posted: 28 April 2016 10:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Titanomachina - 28 April 2016 08:52 AM

What if acting against them is what is right?

Then you have an existential problem: the existentialist’s literature is full of characters in such difficult situations.

Titanomachina - 28 April 2016 08:52 AM

Also how can you know if those desires and aspirations are your own? You know how easily influenced people are, you could just be following someone else’s desire and aspiration, and the same for them, etc.

Again, you can find many examples of these in existentialist literature. Self-knowledge, an honest reflection of how your life works out is essential.

Titanomachina - 28 April 2016 08:52 AM

And assuming there is such a thing as being authentic, why is it good? People seem to do well when they are anything but themselves, it’s how society functions, it’s how people function. 

Now you are contradicting yourself: according to you people don’t have a self, and therefore they cannot be not themselves.

Of course there is a lot of fake in the world. But is that a reason to be a fake yourself? Why don’t you do an honest investigation why your life does not work out as you would like?

Titanomachina - 28 April 2016 08:52 AM

What if being authentic is just a trap?

Yes, it could be. Stay at home. Don’t change. Never try an experiment with your life. Do not commit yourself to others or any activity. Stick to your world view. Don’t ever try something new. Try to convince yourself conceptually that your unhappy life is the complete truth. Then you can be 100% sure your will not be caught in this trap.

PS
This might be a good book for you.

[ Edited: 28 April 2016 11:46 PM by GdB ]
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Posted: 29 April 2016 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I’m saying authenticity is a joke. That there is nothing to be true to because there is no self. Your desires and aspirations are not yours to begin with either.

Just because there is much fake in the world isn’t a reason to be real (not like you can be, there is nothing “you” about you).

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Posted: 29 April 2016 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

I’m saying authenticity is a joke. That there is nothing to be true to because there is no self.

You repeated that already many times. I already showed you that your argument is wrong, but you never countered it.

Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

Your desires and aspirations are not yours to begin with either.

This makes no sense either. You say that there is no self, and you say that “your desires and aspirations are not yours”. If there is no ‘you’ how then can you say that something is not yours? It is a fake argument, Titanomachina.
By saying that everything is fake, you are saying that everything is inauthentic. But that means that people do as if they are something they not really are. Your judgement that everything is fake is based that there are real ‘yous’.

You use a wrong meaning of ‘being (in)authentic’.

Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

Just because there is much fake in the world isn’t a reason to be real (not like you can be, there is nothing “you” about you).

Oh yes, there is a good reason: living a fulfilled life.

With all this talk of you about fake, you seem to mirror just your own stance.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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GdB - 29 April 2016 11:36 PM
Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

I’m saying authenticity is a joke. That there is nothing to be true to because there is no self.

You repeated that already many times. I already showed you that your argument is wrong, but you never countered it.

Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

Your desires and aspirations are not yours to begin with either.

This makes no sense either. You say that there is no self, and you say that “your desires and aspirations are not yours”. If there is no ‘you’ how then can you say that something is not yours? It is a fake argument, Titanomachina.
By saying that everything is fake, you are saying that everything is inauthentic. But that means that people do as if they are something they not really are. Your judgement that everything is fake is based that there are real ‘yous’.

You use a wrong meaning of ‘being (in)authentic’.

Titanomachina - 29 April 2016 05:24 PM

Just because there is much fake in the world isn’t a reason to be real (not like you can be, there is nothing “you” about you).

Oh yes, there is a good reason: living a fulfilled life.

With all this talk of you about fake, you seem to mirror just your own stance.

You have not proven my argument to be wrong about there being no such thing as authenticity.

You seem to lack an understanding of what is meant by no self.

I’m saying humans cannot be authentic, because everything they are is an imitation. That’s also part of the illusion of the self. You take certain traits to be “you” but they aren’t. They are just echoes of what’s around you.

You also make an in correct statement in that being authentic is needed to live a fulfilled life. You don’t. People do it every day. Because as I said before, there is no such thing as authenticity. People are just fakes, there’s nothing authentic about them.

It can also be argued that this world is fake, as well can never know “real” reality, just the imitation of our senses provide.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 09:25 AM

I’m saying humans cannot be authentic, because everything they are is an imitation. That’s also part of the illusion of the self. You take certain traits to be “you” but they aren’t. They are just echoes of what’s around you.

You also make an in correct statement in that being authentic is needed to live a fulfilled life. You don’t. People do it every day. Because as I said before, there is no such thing as authenticity. People are just fakes, there’s nothing authentic about them.

It can also be argued that this world is fake, as well can never know “real” reality, just the imitation of our senses provide.

Titan you’ve come on here previously with questions concerning physical fitness and dieting, your self questioning of your sexuality and
disillusionment thereof, deep concerns about what reality is, and suicidal ponderings and the value of life and suicidal people.

People are trying to humor you or engage with you, connect with you here etc…
But let’s not kid ourselves by couching this in some philosophical discussion that’s meaningful or profound.

You are obviously having issues with your identity. This is about you.
Not the meaning of the Universe. You. Your emotions.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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VYAZMA - 30 April 2016 09:57 AM
Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 09:25 AM

I’m saying humans cannot be authentic, because everything they are is an imitation. That’s also part of the illusion of the self. You take certain traits to be “you” but they aren’t. They are just echoes of what’s around you.

You also make an in correct statement in that being authentic is needed to live a fulfilled life. You don’t. People do it every day. Because as I said before, there is no such thing as authenticity. People are just fakes, there’s nothing authentic about them.

It can also be argued that this world is fake, as well can never know “real” reality, just the imitation of our senses provide.

Titan you’ve come on here previously with questions concerning physical fitness and dieting, your self questioning of your sexuality and
disillusionment thereof, deep concerns about what reality is, and suicidal ponderings and the value of life and suicidal people.

People are trying to humor you or engage with you, connect with you here etc…
But let’s not kid ourselves by couching this in some philosophical discussion that’s meaningful or profound.

You are obviously having issues with your identity. This is about you.
Not the meaning of the Universe. You. Your emotions.

Incorrect.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 10:01 AM

Incorrect.

No, it’s correct.

I think you’re trying to construct a “reality view”, a perspective that you can inhabit, that is comfortable and makes sense.
And that’s great! Everybody does that. We all conceive the reality that is most emotionally comfortable for ourselves.

Your’s here at this time though is “under construction”. It’s hitting the boundaries of rationality.
Again nothing wrong with that….but you shouldn’t try to vociferously argue your perspective on other people
who disagree or don’t see it your way.

You can run with this worldview forever, carry that baggage that you have already revealed to us.
But trying to rearrange the geometry to fit your views and expecting everyone else to fit in the geometry too, is irrational.

Your ideas that everyone is fake and copies is not well grounded. It’s grist for philosophical meanderings…
But your stubborn insistence belies a deeper struggle within yourself.
And like I said, you’ve already tipped your hand on other issues.

That’s ok.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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VYAZMA - 30 April 2016 10:58 AM
Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 10:01 AM

Incorrect.

No, it’s correct.

I think you’re trying to construct a “reality view”, a perspective that you can inhabit, that is comfortable and makes sense.
And that’s great! Everybody does that. We all conceive the reality that is most emotionally comfortable for ourselves.

Your’s here at this time though is “under construction”. It’s hitting the boundaries of rationality.
Again nothing wrong with that….but you shouldn’t try to vociferously argue your perspective on other people
who disagree or don’t see it your way.

You can run with this worldview forever, carry that baggage that you have already revealed to us.
But trying to rearrange the geometry to fit your views and expecting everyone else to fit in the geometry too, is irrational.

Your ideas that everyone is fake and copies is not well grounded. It’s grist for philosophical meanderings…
But your stubborn insistence belies a deeper struggle within yourself.
And like I said, you’ve already tipped your hand on other issues.

That’s ok.

There is no baggage, just questions that people have been unable to answer.

The idea that everyone is fake is more grounded than you believe. The illusion of a true self or an authentic one is what pervades most of society at the moment. People don’t realize that such a thing does not exist.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 11:12 AM

There is no baggage, just questions that people have been unable to answer.

The idea that everyone is fake is more grounded than you believe. The illusion of a true self or an authentic one is what pervades most of society at the moment. People don’t realize that such a thing does not exist.

Well this theme can’t start like this.
Everyone who takes part in this discussion has to be on the same page about sub-parts of this theme.
Authentic or Self for starters.

Only when everyone is on the same page about self, true self or authentic can we move onto whether they are illusions or not.
Or what people realize exists and doesn’t exist.

Otherwise we have 3-5 people just talking past one another as each has their own ideas about what “authentic” or “self” means.

First, and this could take 20 pages, you have to explain what “self” is.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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How can I describe what doesn’t exist?

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Posted: 30 April 2016 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 11:31 AM

How can I describe what doesn’t exist?

Well that’s a start then. “The Self”.
It’s attached to other words like: your, his, her, my, inflating, adhesive, starting, as well as selfish and other words etc..
So we know it’s a word that we use. So it has meaning already.
“There’s doughnuts, help yourself”.
Or perhaps more to the point, “I can see myself in the mirror.”

Now you go. Fill it in. Debate. Disagree. Add stuff.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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But where is this self? It’s not the thoughts that occur in your head. The only other thing is the body, but that’s just a physical construct. Nothing people like or do is a part of the self, they’re just actions.

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Posted: 30 April 2016 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 April 2016 11:52 AM

But where is this self? It’s not the thoughts that occur in your head. The only other thing is the body, but that’s just a physical construct. Nothing people like or do is a part of the self, they’re just actions.

Ok, I say it is the thoughts that occur in your head. It is the other people you observe.

There is no actual “self”. Just like there is no soul inside of people.
But it is a construct of language we use to describe a contained, unit.
It means One. A unit. One in a series of many.
Something can act on a self, but not another self. Or something can act on many selves, but not other selves.
Also, a self can act upon other things or selves.

So we use it to identify a specific unit. Or self. Or ourselves.
You can pick out a photograph of yourself in a group of people.

Now remember, stay on the definition of “self” here first.
Don’t go off on illusions of self, or other avenues until we agree on what “self” is. If we can…
Even though you say it doesn’t exist, I think I just laid down some examples that should be hard to dispute.

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