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Is life a curse?
Posted: 11 May 2017 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 346 ]
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Titanomachina - 11 May 2017 06:19 PM
Lausten - 11 May 2017 01:31 PM
Titanomachina - 11 May 2017 01:14 PM

Yes it’s a lot but it has to be read to truly grasp where this is getting at. A quick summary just won’t do. I read it all, and I can’t quite summarize it

Because you don’t understand it. That’s not as much of an insult as it seems. Some of the greatest minds in human history are referenced in your long post. You aren’t dealing with simple concepts here, rather with questions of the ages. You shouldn’t expect to find simple answers like, “let’s just all die.”

You mean like Metzinger and Corain?

It seems like this Ligotti person has answered that question based on everything stated before, and in the post I made (the long one).

Well, he hasn’t.

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Posted: 11 May 2017 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 347 ]
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Lausten - 11 May 2017 06:50 PM
Titanomachina - 11 May 2017 06:19 PM
Lausten - 11 May 2017 01:31 PM
Titanomachina - 11 May 2017 01:14 PM

Yes it’s a lot but it has to be read to truly grasp where this is getting at. A quick summary just won’t do. I read it all, and I can’t quite summarize it

Because you don’t understand it. That’s not as much of an insult as it seems. Some of the greatest minds in human history are referenced in your long post. You aren’t dealing with simple concepts here, rather with questions of the ages. You shouldn’t expect to find simple answers like, “let’s just all die.”

You mean like Metzinger and Corain?

It seems like this Ligotti person has answered that question based on everything stated before, and in the post I made (the long one).

Well, he hasn’t.

Exactly how so? Because it seems to me he has, he even has the same agreement with Corian about consciousness being a disease. Also how there is no reason to be alive but certainly ones to die. I mean that’s why suicide occurs in the world.

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Posted: 12 May 2017 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 348 ]
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http://why-im-sold-on-antinatalism.blogspot.com/2010/09/philanthropic-antinatalism-must-stand.html
http://saynotolife.blogspot.com/2011/11/are-we-hypocrites.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/44qezz/critical_flaw_in_the_antinatalist_argument/?st=j2mf8lgk&sh=cc1a1555

Some short bits that further elaborate the earlier points.

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Posted: 24 June 2017 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 349 ]
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The problem here is that we tend to think of our lives as our own and our action as affecting only a small world around us. In reality, our lives are shared. For most people others depend on us and we depend on others. As a group we accomplish far more than any individual could, so it isn’t really appropriate to think of one individual as an isolated part. It is a part of an incredible organism just as the individual cells of our own bodies are part of an incredible organism - capable of so much more than any one of those individual cells. No individual could build and operate a Dreamliner or a Jumbo Jet yet thousands take advantage of them every day. And just like those cells in our bodies, we die and are replaced by younger versions of ourselves as the organism we contribute to continues to grow and thrive. Some would argue that our organism is the Earth itself because we need other parts of the earth that are separate from us for our survival as surely as we need our own body organs.

Our purpose is surely to evolve. I don’t think evolution can be avoided. Evolution shows us we are transients. We are not meant to exist forever. Discarded when we are no longer effective at serving evolution. Until then we sustain whatever is evolving. Yet our existence will remain a part of what evolves. It wouldn’t be the same without us. Is Newton dead, or is he alive in every design that relies on his laws? Are the people who fed, cared for, educated etc. Newton dead or do they live on in the scientific icon that could not have existed without them?

I don’t see my life as a curse and it thrills me to think that in some humble way I have contributed to some future potentially far more spectacular than my present. Life isn’t all trials and tribulations and a significant part of a contented life is coming to terms with those trials and tribulations. Doing what you can despite the hurdles. There are certainly lives that are more challenging than others but even the most grievous victim has something to teach us or challenge us with.

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Posted: 24 June 2017 09:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 350 ]
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JohnH - 24 June 2017 08:42 PM

The problem here is that we tend to think of our lives as our own and our action as affecting only a small world around us. In reality, our lives are shared. For most people others depend on us and we depend on others. As a group we accomplish far more than any individual could, so it isn’t really appropriate to think of one individual as an isolated part. It is a part of an incredible organism just as the individual cells of our own bodies are part of an incredible organism - capable of so much more than any one of those individual cells. No individual could build and operate a Dreamliner or a Jumbo Jet yet thousands take advantage of them every day. And just like those cells in our bodies, we die and are replaced by younger versions of ourselves as the organism we contribute to continues to grow and thrive. Some would argue that our organism is the Earth itself because we need other parts of the earth that are separate from us for our survival as surely as we need our own body organs.

Our purpose is surely to evolve. I don’t think evolution can be avoided. Evolution shows us we are transients. We are not meant to exist forever. Discarded when we are no longer effective at serving evolution. Until then we sustain whatever is evolving. Yet our existence will remain a part of what evolves. It wouldn’t be the same without us. Is Newton dead, or is he alive in every design that relies on his laws? Are the people who fed, cared for, educated etc. Newton dead or do they live on in the scientific icon that could not have existed without them?

I don’t see my life as a curse and it thrills me to think that in some humble way I have contributed to some future potentially far more spectacular than my present. Life isn’t all trials and tribulations and a significant part of a contented life is coming to terms with those trials and tribulations. Doing what you can despite the hurdles. There are certainly lives that are more challenging than others but even the most grievous victim has something to teach us or challenge us with.

SWEET ! !

Welcome to CFI, hope to hear more from you.

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Posted: 26 June 2017 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 351 ]
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JohnH - 24 June 2017 08:42 PM

The problem here is that we tend to think of our lives as our own and our action as affecting only a small world around us. In reality, our lives are shared. For most people others depend on us and we depend on others. As a group we accomplish far more than any individual could, so it isn’t really appropriate to think of one individual as an isolated part. It is a part of an incredible organism just as the individual cells of our own bodies are part of an incredible organism - capable of so much more than any one of those individual cells. No individual could build and operate a Dreamliner or a Jumbo Jet yet thousands take advantage of them every day. And just like those cells in our bodies, we die and are replaced by younger versions of ourselves as the organism we contribute to continues to grow and thrive. Some would argue that our organism is the Earth itself because we need other parts of the earth that are separate from us for our survival as surely as we need our own body organs.

Our purpose is surely to evolve. I don’t think evolution can be avoided. Evolution shows us we are transients. We are not meant to exist forever. Discarded when we are no longer effective at serving evolution. Until then we sustain whatever is evolving. Yet our existence will remain a part of what evolves. It wouldn’t be the same without us. Is Newton dead, or is he alive in every design that relies on his laws? Are the people who fed, cared for, educated etc. Newton dead or do they live on in the scientific icon that could not have existed without them?

I don’t see my life as a curse and it thrills me to think that in some humble way I have contributed to some future potentially far more spectacular than my present. Life isn’t all trials and tribulations and a significant part of a contented life is coming to terms with those trials and tribulations. Doing what you can despite the hurdles. There are certainly lives that are more challenging than others but even the most grievous victim has something to teach us or challenge us with.

You sounds terribly deluded. There is no purpose to human life, evolution is more like a chance process than any sort of service. It creates creatures that butcher each other for survival, it’s more like a psychopath than anything else.

Newton is dead, the laws aren’t his, they have always existed in the universe. The further you are working towards is little more than some charred husk of a planet. If a meteor doesn’t wipe us out then the expansion of the sun will, or we will just wipe each other out.

It’s the same sort of naive claptrap people spew when confronted with the grim reality of our existence.

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Posted: 26 June 2017 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 352 ]
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For what it’s worth, I just wanted to mention that there is actually no proof at all that there is an external meaning to life beyond what we give it.  Nor is there any proof at all that there isn’t an external meaning to life beyond what we give it.  So the question of whether our suffering has any meaning is entirely open.  Yes, it’s true that many people have very strong opinions about whether an external meaning exists or not, but opinions are not proof.

Luckily, suffering is not really so much about what’s actually happening, but rather more about our relationship to what is happening.  This seems good news, because that relationship can be edited to a significant degree.

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Posted: 26 June 2017 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 353 ]
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Titanomachina - 26 June 2017 08:56 AM

You sounds terribly deluded. There is no purpose to human life, evolution is more like a chance process than any sort of service. It creates creatures that butcher each other for survival, it’s more like a psychopath than anything else.

I don’t really want to get involved in deep philosophical wranglings over existence, but there seems to be widespread misunderstanding and misinformation about evolution.

First, let me say that evolution couldn’t occur without something to work on. We serve evolution - whatever the “purpose” of evolution. Some of us enjoy the journey even if the destination is uncertain.

Evolution isn’t chance, it is very logical. The “chance” is in the generation of options that are presented for the logical process of natural selection to operate upon and take advantage of.

Certainly creatures “butcher each other for survival”. It is a part of the essential flow of energy to sustain and evolve. Evolution mandates that every creature must eventually die or evolution couldn’t occur. Most examples of dying are unpleasant - butchered or not. A focus on “butchery” misses all of the other things creatures do or experience in a period of time that for many far exceeds the fleeting time of death. It alo misses their contribution to the future. Many creatures thrive rather than survive. Plagues, even of humans have been issues on this planet. Lost in the dramatic images of “survival of the fittest” and “red in tooth and claw” that sell popularity and media productions is the boring notion that cooperation and mutual help are critical components of evolution. This is a well documented scientific fact. Investigate the “backstory” of many reports of predatory drama and you will find a common theme about the difficulties of encountering predation. These cool stories and images garner much attention and lead to a false perception of the extent of predation. Thriving prey vastly outnumber predators.

Titanomachina - 26 June 2017 08:56 AM

Newton is dead, the laws aren’t his, they have always existed in the universe. The further you are working towards is little more than some charred husk of a planet. If a meteor doesn’t wipe us out then the expansion of the sun will, or we will just wipe each other out.

I’m not working towards a future, just living the present and acknowledging the world around me. You don’t like my vision of a future but push yours upon me. Evolution has a solution for that - Natural Selection. We can offer evolution options. Sit and wait for a meteor to wipe us out or devise measures to protect ourselves from falling meteors. Which is the “fittest” option? We can sit moaning the fate of our world or we can work towards alternative opportunities to exist when the sun expands. We can tolerate the aggressions of the world today and wait for annihilation or we can work towards a more peaceful world. We’re providing options for the hard logic of natural selection to work upon. Prey can lie there thinking it will eventually get caught by a predator so why bother to run, or it can run away and live to run another day.

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[ Edited: 26 June 2017 10:38 AM by JohnH ]
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Posted: 26 June 2017 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 354 ]
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Tita, you said evolution is like a psychopath

psy·cho·path
ˈsīkəˌpaTH
noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.
synonyms:  madman, madwoman, maniac, lunatic, psychotic, sociopath; More
informal
an unstable and aggressive person.
“schoolyard psychopaths will gather around a fight to encourage the combatants”

But evolution doesn’t have purpose or intentions or feelings. It lacks a conscience. I think you meant sociopath

so·ci·o·path
ˈsōsēōˌpaTH
noun
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

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Posted: 26 June 2017 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 355 ]
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JohnH - 24 June 2017 08:42 PM

The problem here is that we tend to think of our lives as our own and our action as affecting only a small world around us. In reality, our lives are shared. For most people others depend on us and we depend on others. As a group we accomplish far more than any individual could, so it isn’t really appropriate to think of one individual as an isolated part. It is a part of an incredible organism just as the individual cells of our own bodies are part of an incredible organism - capable of so much more than any one of those individual cells. No individual could build and operate a Dreamliner or a Jumbo Jet yet thousands take advantage of them every day. And just like those cells in our bodies, we die and are replaced by younger versions of ourselves as the organism we contribute to continues to grow and thrive. Some would argue that our organism is the Earth itself because we need other parts of the earth that are separate from us for our survival as surely as we need our own body organs.

Well said.
I would argue that life is a lucky gift, but only for a little while. As the cells in our body renew themselves, so does every evolving organism.

A tree may live 2000 years, a mayfly lives 24 hrs. Humans live 75-80 years on average, before their life code stops cell division and we are replaced by our offspring, which may or may not be better adapted to the environment.

This is the only way evolution can express itself. Natural selection is a statistical process, which tends to favor those organisms which are best adapted to their environment, but there are no guarantees, the environment is just too complex for humans to be able to manipulate it.

This is why the insect is so successful. They do not change the environment, they have perfectly adapted to it. They may have a short lifespan, but multiply at an incredible rate, which gives them a statistical advantage through sheer numbers of offspring.
This has enabled the insect to survive for some 500 million years as a species

As Hellstrom chronicled, they were the first to inhabit the surface of the earth and will be last to disappear. Check out the Hellstrom Chronicle on Youtube

[ Edited: 26 June 2017 12:39 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 June 2017 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 356 ]
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Youtube.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8UN9zGD04&list=PLOd8HJhLiHIwhP65eYlAOovD4R61hGDJ1 )

So apparently the only answer is to adapt rather than try to change the environment. So far we have not done a very good job of it.

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Posted: 29 June 2017 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 357 ]
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JohnH - 26 June 2017 10:36 AM
Titanomachina - 26 June 2017 08:56 AM

You sounds terribly deluded. There is no purpose to human life, evolution is more like a chance process than any sort of service. It creates creatures that butcher each other for survival, it’s more like a psychopath than anything else.

I don’t really want to get involved in deep philosophical wranglings over existence, but there seems to be widespread misunderstanding and misinformation about evolution.

First, let me say that evolution couldn’t occur without something to work on. We serve evolution - whatever the “purpose” of evolution. Some of us enjoy the journey even if the destination is uncertain.

Evolution isn’t chance, it is very logical. The “chance” is in the generation of options that are presented for the logical process of natural selection to operate upon and take advantage of.

Certainly creatures “butcher each other for survival”. It is a part of the essential flow of energy to sustain and evolve. Evolution mandates that every creature must eventually die or evolution couldn’t occur. Most examples of dying are unpleasant - butchered or not. A focus on “butchery” misses all of the other things creatures do or experience in a period of time that for many far exceeds the fleeting time of death. It alo misses their contribution to the future. Many creatures thrive rather than survive. Plagues, even of humans have been issues on this planet. Lost in the dramatic images of “survival of the fittest” and “red in tooth and claw” that sell popularity and media productions is the boring notion that cooperation and mutual help are critical components of evolution. This is a well documented scientific fact. Investigate the “backstory” of many reports of predatory drama and you will find a common theme about the difficulties of encountering predation. These cool stories and images garner much attention and lead to a false perception of the extent of predation. Thriving prey vastly outnumber predators.

Titanomachina - 26 June 2017 08:56 AM

Newton is dead, the laws aren’t his, they have always existed in the universe. The further you are working towards is little more than some charred husk of a planet. If a meteor doesn’t wipe us out then the expansion of the sun will, or we will just wipe each other out.

I’m not working towards a future, just living the present and acknowledging the world around me. You don’t like my vision of a future but push yours upon me. Evolution has a solution for that - Natural Selection. We can offer evolution options. Sit and wait for a meteor to wipe us out or devise measures to protect ourselves from falling meteors. Which is the “fittest” option? We can sit moaning the fate of our world or we can work towards alternative opportunities to exist when the sun expands. We can tolerate the aggressions of the world today and wait for annihilation or we can work towards a more peaceful world. We’re providing options for the hard logic of natural selection to work upon. Prey can lie there thinking it will eventually get caught by a predator so why bother to run, or it can run away and live to run another day.

spam avoidance

As I have said, you are deluded.

Evolution is more like a chance happening. It’s not always beneficial or logical, mutations are examples of this.

We aren’t going to leave this planet, that’s the realty. When the sun expands we are doomed (assuming we are alive then). It’s even more idiotic to think we can stop a meteor from hitting the earth. In all likelihood we are probably going to end up killing each other. There aren’t alternatives, there is just delaying to inevitable. All we are working towards is dust.

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