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The Secret of Jesus’ Passion
Posted: 31 January 2017 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 09:13 PM

So, is your point to be made that Dan Brown is a scholars in your mind?

Of course not. I was ridiculing your assertion that scholars believe stuff that Dan Brown included in his poorly written work of fiction. What you posted was pretty much what Dan Brown wrote.

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Posted: 01 February 2017 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I think he’s referring to the likes of Ehrman? Not Dan Brown.

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Posted: 01 February 2017 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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I knew that, but what he wrote sounded like the plot synopsis I’ve read of The Davinci Code. I was also punching fun at Mike’s proclivity for finding one scholar that backs his notions and dismissing the many others who disagree. And I just couldn’t resist after Mike’s recent comment that Jesus’ half brother started a Christian war that killed 20 million to 30 million people then fled China for the United States.

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Posted: 01 February 2017 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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DarronS - 31 January 2017 09:32 PM
MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 09:13 PM

So, is your point to be made that Dan Brown is a scholars in your mind?

Of course not. I was ridiculing your assertion that scholars believe stuff that Dan Brown included in his poorly written work of fiction. What you posted was pretty much what Dan Brown wrote.

You need to re-read the book. My postings were not from Dan Brown’s book. I read the book and watched the movie too. But that was just for entertainment. The items they used relating to the Holy Blood findings I don’t think were understood by the general public. You had to have some sort of background knowledge to understand those issues.

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Posted: 01 February 2017 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 09:26 AM
Lausten - 31 January 2017 07:26 AM
LoisL - 30 January 2017 10:54 PM
MikeYohe - 30 January 2017 08:44 PM

Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.

You know this how?

Because it’s “real”. You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you’ve learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed.

What 99% of the other evidence? There is no 99% of other evidence that I can find. Please provide some of that evidence will you. The development, history and evolution of religion is one of my hobbies.
 
Please tell me where Jesus went to college, if you agree that he was married, and what religion he was. Was Jesus Gnostic? And I know that you will say Jesus was a Jew. But what was going on with the Jewish religion at the time of Jesus, if he was able to bring none Jewish ideas to the temple? And why did burial methods at the temple change in at the time of Jesus? How often do you see religions change their burial methods without changing their beliefs? We have had more data available to the common man (me) in the last twenty years that was never available before here in America to be able to get a picture of the past. 
 
I see trying to understand our past history as part of our inheritance that should be passed down to the next generations. Today we have a few really good religious scholars who are unraveling the past. One of scholars is Barrie Wilson. And Mr. Wilson gives us his views on the Jesus movement and more data on Mary Magdalene who many now think was Jesus’s wife. I will suggest reading his and Simcha Jacobovici’s book – “The Lost Gospel”.

We’ve been through this a couple times Yohe. Pretty outrageous of you to ask for references given your past. More outrageous to say you have more data when last I checked, all that data is in some disorganized boxes in your garage. The only source I really need is the Bible itself. Anything extant just confirms the history that can be pieced together from there.

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Posted: 01 February 2017 08:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten - 01 February 2017 06:17 PM
MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 09:26 AM
Lausten - 31 January 2017 07:26 AM
LoisL - 30 January 2017 10:54 PM
MikeYohe - 30 January 2017 08:44 PM

Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.

You know this how?

Because it’s “real”. You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you’ve learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed.

What 99% of the other evidence? There is no 99% of other evidence that I can find. Please provide some of that evidence will you. The development, history and evolution of religion is one of my hobbies.
 
Please tell me where Jesus went to college, if you agree that he was married, and what religion he was. Was Jesus Gnostic? And I know that you will say Jesus was a Jew. But what was going on with the Jewish religion at the time of Jesus, if he was able to bring none Jewish ideas to the temple? And why did burial methods at the temple change in at the time of Jesus? How often do you see religions change their burial methods without changing their beliefs? We have had more data available to the common man (me) in the last twenty years that was never available before here in America to be able to get a picture of the past. 
 
I see trying to understand our past history as part of our inheritance that should be passed down to the next generations. Today we have a few really good religious scholars who are unraveling the past. One of scholars is Barrie Wilson. And Mr. Wilson gives us his views on the Jesus movement and more data on Mary Magdalene who many now think was Jesus’s wife. I will suggest reading his and Simcha Jacobovici’s book – “The Lost Gospel”.

We’ve been through this a couple times Yohe. Pretty outrageous of you to ask for references given your past. More outrageous to say you have more data when last I checked, all that data is in some disorganized boxes in your garage. The only source I really need is the Bible itself. Anything extant just confirms the history that can be pieced together from there.

I want to understand what you are saying. That in over 40,000 thousand years of religion. A religion that has a history with many branches throughout it’s evolving. You are saying that there is enough history in the bible alone to piece it all back together? I not going to challenge you on the bible, because I know you’re understanding of the bible in immense. But I find that when I read some items in the bible it is my understanding of earlier history that gives me a complete different picture than if I had to just rely on the bible itself. And I am not just talking about the small items here.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 12:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Lausten - 31 January 2017 07:26 AM
LoisL - 30 January 2017 10:54 PM
MikeYohe - 30 January 2017 08:44 PM

Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.

You know this how?

Because it’s “real”. You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you’ve learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed.

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

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Posted: 02 February 2017 12:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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DarronS - 31 January 2017 09:32 PM
MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 09:13 PM

So, is your point to be made that Dan Brown is a scholars in your mind?

Of course not. I was ridiculing your assertion that scholars believe stuff that Dan Brown included in his poorly written work of fiction. What you posted was pretty much what Dan Brown wrote.

I know of no biblical scholars who believe what Dan Brown wrote is true. It was an interesting work of fantasy, no more believable as true than Star Wars.

[ Edited: 03 February 2017 11:57 PM by LoisL ]
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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

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Posted: 02 February 2017 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 08:51 PM

What I find interesting is that Jesus was  Ain’t even close to being established - BARRIE SUGGESTS ! running for office according to the findings of Barrie Wilson’s interruption of the lost gospel.

I don’t know if Jesus hated the Jews but he want to lead the Jews and he had very good connections in Rome, all the way to the top. Jesus’s bad luck was a change in power in Rome. If that hadn’t happened Jesus would have been governing the area.

It didn’t take too much googling to find that Wilson’s book hasn’t convinced too many (any?) in the know.

A shrewd politician heading to the top.  big surprise
Do any other scholars entertain such a notion?

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Posted: 02 February 2017 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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JSmith - 31 January 2017 10:26 AM

PS: What happened to the brain of Citizen’s Challenge above where Jesus is advocated as, well, just about worshiped? The evidence of some type of true conversion is there too. That evidence is the deprecating phrase:

“Shattering our egos. 
Dying on the cross of our own making”  (failings)
Ego is our identity as self aware and the hallmark of humanity. Ego can be overdone as self awareness becomes “only aware of self”.
to shatter the ego? Don’t shatter it at all. Harness it.

His phase is analogous to:
“Smashing our guitars.
Dying on the stage of our own melody”

If done to express our passion, that is good for everyone and children. In the way CC uses it, it seems hateful to humanity in a way only Jesus and god can be.

Hateful ???  Where do you come up with that?

Yes the “ego” is the aware self.
Human awareness is on a continuum.
Way too many can’t see past their own immediate self interest, or even feel hostility and commit violence towards others.  We behave in self-destructive ways. 
If those so afflicted work on themselves, they will reach the point where truly recognizing themselves as others have experienced them is emotional shattering - crisis of ego - dying on the metaphorical cross of our own failings.

This is where I’m suggesting the metaphorical example of Jesus comes into its own - no god, no hateful, simply a spiritual support.  For those who choose, if you don’t choose him, there are other metaphors and spiritual aids.

Back in the 70s I had a friend who seriously studied philosophy, degree level stuff.  He told me about their best professor a man who so thoroughly dismantled all perceptions of his students that it lead to emotional crisis in some.  But, once the shock passed the “emptied out” students were ready to genuinely tackle philosophy as opposed to just smelling the flowers.  This is close to what I’m talking about.


I’m very curious where you find this “hatred” in my words.

Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 29 January 2017 09:54 PM

Jesus’ Passion is a guide and support for us as we individually traverse our own lives.  Jesus is there in spirit to help each who reaches for him to help guide in times of trials and tribulations.  He’s about helping those who’ve reached their reckoning, when sins and failings have done their damage and there’s no place left to go.

He offers strength to stand trial, to be justly convicted, …
to face it, own it, to absorb our own sins.
To finally understand it from the outside looking in.

Shattering our egos. 
Dying on the cross of our own making.

The Glorious News is that once you’ve done it,
the promised rebirth happens, and you awaken a new person.

Your history is still yours, but your direction, attitude and understanding is deeper.  You find yourself with tools to handle the day to day you never imagined were in you.  You finally appreciate your’s is a universal struggle, just as with your parents and their parents and all others.

Jesus is,
    not about brainwashing or absolutism, or self-delusion,
    not about driving an agenda and gaining power,
    not a bludgeon of judgement,
    no end of the world,
    no heaven or hell.
    Just a guiding support for those who choose to believe.

Jesus certainly isn’t ruler of our eternal physical universe, nor our mother planet, Earth.

Jesus is a divine being of our own global societal mind,
it’s a beautiful thing, but that’s as far as his reach goes.

Not a Universal Truth, Jesus and the Abrahamic Faiths are Personal Truths, nothing more. 

What about Science? 
That’s a human tool for understanding the physical world we were born out of and will die back into. 
It’s a tool for keeping humans honest* in a way religions are incapable of.


PS. We need each other to keep ourselves honest.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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MikeYohe - 01 February 2017 08:41 PM
Lausten - 01 February 2017 06:17 PM

We’ve been through this a couple times Yohe. Pretty outrageous of you to ask for references given your past. More outrageous to say you have more data when last I checked, all that data is in some disorganized boxes in your garage. The only source I really need is the Bible itself. Anything extant just confirms the history that can be pieced together from there.

I want to understand what you are saying. That in over 40,000 thousand years of religion. A religion that has a history with many branches throughout it’s evolving. You are saying that there is enough history in the bible alone to piece it all back together? I not going to challenge you on the bible, because I know you’re understanding of the bible in immense. But I find that when I read some items in the bible it is my understanding of earlier history that gives me a complete different picture than if I had to just rely on the bible itself. And I am not just talking about the small items here.

Oh right, I forgot that you see everything in light of a few bones or beads found 40,000 years ago. Of course religion has evolved, and Jesus can be seen as one in a line of similar incarnations of religion. That doesn’t tell us much about how we came to have belief in the 20th century of a particular man with a particular name. To find that, your best source is the Bible, Isaiah 52, 53, Daniel, Corinthians are good starts. Obviously some background data is helpful, and without it you couldn’t assign probabilities to facts. I was not suggesting anything so ridiculous as having someone from a lost South America tribe simply read the Bible and figure it all out.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 11:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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You guys should really watch Zeitgeist, The Movie. The first part documents just how UN-unique the Christian religion is. Just about everything it considers sacred occurs in numerous other religions and belief systems. Virgin birth, 3 days in a cave, ressurection, and on and on. And mind you ZG is not anti-christianity. It’s just saying that humans, faced with similar circumstances, especially when on the whole civilizations were ignorant, humans will come to very similar creation myths.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 02 February 2017 09:31 AM
MikeYohe - 31 January 2017 08:51 PM

What I find interesting is that Jesus was  Ain’t even close to being established - BARRIE SUGGESTS ! running for office according to the findings of Barrie Wilson’s interruption of the lost gospel.

I don’t know if Jesus hated the Jews but he want to lead the Jews and he had very good connections in Rome, all the way to the top. Jesus’s bad luck was a change in power in Rome. If that hadn’t happened Jesus would have been governing the area.

It didn’t take too much googling to find that Wilson’s book hasn’t convinced too many (any?) in the know.

A shrewd politician heading to the top.  big surprise
Do any other scholars entertain such a notion?

What you found fits a common pattern. I would be shock if the experts acted differently. Take the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi library, the finding of the Ark, the graves of Jesus’s family, the virginity of Mother Mary, just to name a few. Then look at what history shows us and it has been this way for some time. Take the horns of Moses for example. I wouldn’t be jumping to conclusions to fast when it comes to religion. This is a subject that you really need to look at all the angles that you can. Call it the human factor. Acceptance of changes of religious ideas can easily take decades. The Gospel of Thomas was found in 1898 (Oxyrhynchus) and it is just now starting to be accepted. One of the problems was most the scholars worked at religious institutions and most still do. 
 
It is hard to build good scenarios and even harder to build theories. What I find interesting is that the lost gospel does fit very well with a lot of the other existing scenarios, kind of like the key or the missing piece of the puzzle.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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LoisL - 02 February 2017 12:36 AM
Lausten - 31 January 2017 07:26 AM
LoisL - 30 January 2017 10:54 PM
MikeYohe - 30 January 2017 08:44 PM

Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.

You know this how?

Because it’s “real”. You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you’ve learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed.

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

List of burial places of biblical figures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burial_places_of_biblical_figures
Is it logical to think that so many graves of bible figures are still known today if they were not real? Where is the grave of Santa or the tooth fairy?
 
Lois, did Jesus exist has never been as issue in my research. The problem really has been that there were claims that to many people may have gotten labeled as “Jesus”. The possible specifics of that what Jesus attempted to do was astounding. But what grew out of his legacy end up being world changing.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 09:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Mike you take the horns of Moses, I’d rather look at animal tracks.

Oh and none of the blah blah up there has a thing to do with Jesus’s Passion, though I imagine many don’t even grasp what that is.

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