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The Secret of Jesus’ Passion
Posted: 02 February 2017 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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JSmith - 30 January 2017 08:00 PM

Science is unlimited in scope. God and his unhuman son Jesus are tools of manipulation to social science. Jesus is to life as blood letting is to medicine.

But religion has no limirs. We know!

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Posted: 02 February 2017 10:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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MikeYohe - 02 February 2017 09:36 PM
LoisL - 02 February 2017 12:36 AM
Lausten - 31 January 2017 07:26 AM
LoisL - 30 January 2017 10:54 PM
MikeYohe - 30 January 2017 08:44 PM

Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.

You know this how?

Because it’s “real”. You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you’ve learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed.

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

List of burial places of biblical figures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burial_places_of_biblical_figures
Is it logical to think that so many graves of bible figures are still known today if they were not real? Where is the grave of Santa or the tooth fairy?
 
Lois, did Jesus exist has never been as issue in my research. The problem really has been that there were claims that to many people may have gotten labeled as “Jesus”. The possible specifics of that what Jesus attempted to do was astounding. But what grew out of his legacy end up being world changing.

What was world changing was the exaggerations and rewriting of Jesus” story by people who never saw him, most of whom were born after he died.

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Posted: 02 February 2017 10:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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LoisL - 02 February 2017 12:36 AM

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

 
Lois, I did not give you any proof for your question about Jesus. I will try and explain my thoughts on that. You would not ask the same question about, let’s say Greek philosophers for example. You don’t question if Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato existed do you. What is their proof of existence? I would have to say their work. The same with the great Buddha’s of the past. Several of the great teachers of the past have continue to exist in history. The same can be said of Jesus. I can find no proof of Jesus the deity really living outside of the bible. But there are the teachings of Jesus the Gnostic (teacher) outside of the bible. The Gnostic gospels for example have a lot of Jesus’s teachings. 
 
Your question is a highly contested question from both sides of the issue and has been for some time.
http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/did-jesus-really-exist-2/

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Posted: 02 February 2017 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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LoisL - 02 February 2017 10:11 PM

What was world changing was the exaggerations and rewriting of Jesus” story by people who never saw him, most of whom were born after he died.

 
Answer - the creation of Christianity. I agree with you totally. I think the stories about Jesus were verbally told and when written down, they had a different resolve and fore filled entirely different objectives. Remember after Jesus the Antonine plague hit. Rodney Stark’s book, the Rise of Christianity, argues that one of the main reasons for the success of Early Christianity was the Christian emphasis on caring for the sick. The plague is said to have taken up to 5M lives. That was at least half of the population.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 12:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 02 February 2017 09:55 PM

Mike you take the horns of Moses, I’d rather look at animal tracks.

Oh and none of the blah blah up there has a thing to do with Jesus’s Passion, though I imagine many don’t even grasp what that is.


CC, I don’t see any difference on what you are calling Jesus’s Passion than what you would see in the Buddha religions. I know you are using it as an arguing point against Senator Jeff Sessions and the Republicans. But I warned you that if you guys kept on pushing and using the tactics you embraced that you could set a lot of the projects back by years and it may take decades to get back to where we were with the Christian movement. So, looking at animal tracks is what you are going to be doing for the next few years. Have fun. I would rather talk about history.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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CuthbertJ - 02 February 2017 11:05 AM

You guys should really watch Zeitgeist, The Movie. The first part documents just how UN-unique the Christian religion is. Just about everything it considers sacred occurs in numerous other religions and belief systems. Virgin birth, 3 days in a cave, ressurection, and on and on. And mind you ZG is not anti-christianity. It’s just saying that humans, faced with similar circumstances, especially when on the whole civilizations were ignorant, humans will come to very similar creation myths.

Zeitgeist is very dated. It has a lot of errors. Richard Carrier has put out the first peer reviewed scholarly work on the historicity of Jesus. He addresses the exact same issues, but in much more depth. It will take a couple years for the work to be absorbed and responded to, but I’m hopeful it will clear up a lot the questions. Hopefully it will leave Mike choking on its dust too.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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MikeYohe - 02 February 2017 10:58 PM

 
Lois, I did not give you any proof for your question about Jesus. I will try and explain my thoughts on that. You would not ask the same question about, let’s say Greek philosophers for example. You don’t question if Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato existed do you.

I won’t speak for Lois, but I do question those people’s existence. A lot of people do. There are entire departments in universities dedicated to asking questions like that. You could find the arguments online I’m sure.

And for the millionth time, there aren’t billions of people worshiping Socrates. There aren’t end of the world theories coming out every few years that people believe and kill their children as a response to them. Congress doesn’t invoke the name of Socrates when suggesting we ban Muslims from coming to America.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Lausten - 03 February 2017 10:05 AM
CuthbertJ - 02 February 2017 11:05 AM

You guys should really watch Zeitgeist, The Movie. The first part documents just how UN-unique the Christian religion is. Just about everything it considers sacred occurs in numerous other religions and belief systems. Virgin birth, 3 days in a cave, ressurection, and on and on. And mind you ZG is not anti-christianity. It’s just saying that humans, faced with similar circumstances, especially when on the whole civilizations were ignorant, humans will come to very similar creation myths.

Zeitgeist is very dated. It has a lot of errors. Richard Carrier has put out the first peer reviewed scholarly work on the historicity of Jesus. He addresses the exact same issues, but in much more depth. It will take a couple years for the work to be absorbed and responded to, but I’m hopeful it will clear up a lot the questions. Hopefully it will leave Mike choking on its dust too.

Dated? It points out how various religions have so many similarities. How is that dated? And it doesn’t really address (as far as I can remember) the historicity of Jesus. Most scholars believe he was a real person, but as to the mythology that has grown up around him, for example his birthday being 25th of Dec, ZG addresses that well.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Lausten - 03 February 2017 10:10 AM
MikeYohe - 02 February 2017 10:58 PM

 
Lois, I did not give you any proof for your question about Jesus. I will try and explain my thoughts on that. You would not ask the same question about, let’s say Greek philosophers for example. You don’t question if Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato existed do you.

I won’t speak for Lois, but I do question those people’s existence. A lot of people do. There are entire departments in universities dedicated to asking questions like that. You could find the arguments online I’m sure.

And for the millionth time, there aren’t billions of people worshiping Socrates. There aren’t end of the world theories coming out every few years that people believe and kill their children as a response to them. Congress doesn’t invoke the name of Socrates when suggesting we ban Muslims from coming to America.

And for the millionth time you have stated the obvious and left out the timeline information. Did all what you are talking about basically happen from the day Jesus was born? Or did it start a hundred years after Jesus died? Where were the protest at the crucifixion? Where were the people? When did it start getting written about?  This is the point we are talking about right now. Was Jesus as popular as a politician in his time or as popular as a GOD? And the end of the world theories are OT, but I got to agree that they are using Jesus to drive them. Most likely just like they used Jesus in the past to write their ideas into the gospels.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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CuthbertJ - 03 February 2017 11:03 AM
Lausten - 03 February 2017 10:05 AM
CuthbertJ - 02 February 2017 11:05 AM

You guys should really watch Zeitgeist, The Movie. The first part documents just how UN-unique the Christian religion is. Just about everything it considers sacred occurs in numerous other religions and belief systems. Virgin birth, 3 days in a cave, ressurection, and on and on. And mind you ZG is not anti-christianity. It’s just saying that humans, faced with similar circumstances, especially when on the whole civilizations were ignorant, humans will come to very similar creation myths.

Zeitgeist is very dated. It has a lot of errors. Richard Carrier has put out the first peer reviewed scholarly work on the historicity of Jesus. He addresses the exact same issues, but in much more depth. It will take a couple years for the work to be absorbed and responded to, but I’m hopeful it will clear up a lot the questions. Hopefully it will leave Mike choking on its dust too.

Dated? It points out how various religions have so many similarities. How is that dated? And it doesn’t really address (as far as I can remember) the historicity of Jesus. Most scholars believe he was a real person, but as to the mythology that has grown up around him, for example his birthday being 25th of Dec, ZG addresses that well.

That’s true, books have been written about Jesus’s sayings and matching them up with older religious saying. On the religious side, I don’t think Jesus was creating a new religion, he was just teaching what he most likely learned in Alexandria, some 30 miles and boat ride away.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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CuthbertJ - 03 February 2017 11:03 AM
Lausten - 03 February 2017 10:05 AM
CuthbertJ - 02 February 2017 11:05 AM

You guys should really watch Zeitgeist, The Movie. The first part documents just how UN-unique the Christian religion is. Just about everything it considers sacred occurs in numerous other religions and belief systems. Virgin birth, 3 days in a cave, ressurection, and on and on. And mind you ZG is not anti-christianity. It’s just saying that humans, faced with similar circumstances, especially when on the whole civilizations were ignorant, humans will come to very similar creation myths.

Zeitgeist is very dated. It has a lot of errors. Richard Carrier has put out the first peer reviewed scholarly work on the historicity of Jesus. He addresses the exact same issues, but in much more depth. It will take a couple years for the work to be absorbed and responded to, but I’m hopeful it will clear up a lot the questions. Hopefully it will leave Mike choking on its dust too.

Dated? It points out how various religions have so many similarities. How is that dated? And it doesn’t really address (as far as I can remember) the historicity of Jesus. Most scholars believe he was a real person, but as to the mythology that has grown up around him, for example his birthday being 25th of Dec, ZG addresses that well.

Yeah, dated. Here’s the Bibliography from OHTJ. I’ll be commenting on this more, and highlighting which of these books are the ones Carrier endorses. Dougherty is at the top of the list. He has beefs with Ehrmann, but that’s a good recent too.

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Posted: 03 February 2017 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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LoisL - 02 February 2017 10:11 PM

What was world changing was the exaggerations and rewriting of Jesus” story by people who never saw him, most of whom were born after he died.

Okay Lois, that is a given Oh, but look at what people have done with it!
Ridicule it, ignore it.;
Still doesn’t take away its power.

The comments in this thread are an exact example of why we (the enlightened ones ) lost the election - too much circling the wagons.

I’ve been to hell and back and I don’t want to circle the wagons and hide from their dependence on religion any more

damnit all - lets confront their crap head on - acknowledging what is real so far as the human spirit and experience is concerned,
When will we focus on the fundamental reality of Earth as a real living entity in its own right and Evolution as how we got here, and how we fit into eternity.

Of course, can’t confront Christianity do that unless you’ve been on the inside and are willing to talk some of the lingo and appreciate some of the concepts.
It ain’t that hard, after all it’s only human nature. 
Rationalism and self-skepticism makes us stronger and smarter.
Just gotta learn how to use our smarts again our adversaries.
 
I’m quite fortunate in that my inside Christianity experience was intense but started at about seven years of age
and it went through its entire cycle in a decade’s worth of growing up and paying attention to the world around me.

... oh and Lois, lordie, lordie, if you don’t think the human spirit is a force to be reckoned with -
well it’s no wonder we’ve done nothing but lose ground against Jesus Freaks for the past four decades.

The reality of Mother Earth and evolution and our own singular unique moments along the flow of Earth’s Evolution is a story
a billion times more magnificent and passionate and important than the completely egotistical Abrahamic Religions
We The Enlightened People
have allowed the ReactionaryMilitaryInductrialComplex and it’s masters-of-the-world oligarch to commandeer then world with.

[ Edited: 03 February 2017 08:15 PM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 03 February 2017 11:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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One question based upon hundreds of thousands of years of religion.
A part of the human makeup that has managed to evolve even when the humans were totally isolated on remote islands.
What if mankind has a religious gene? Point being, if you are going to war, at least know who and what your enemy is.

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Posted: 04 February 2017 12:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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MikeYohe - 02 February 2017 10:58 PM
LoisL - 02 February 2017 12:36 AM

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

 
Lois, I did not give you any proof for your question about Jesus. I will try and explain my thoughts on that. You would not ask the same question about, let’s say Greek philosophers for example. You don’t question if Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato existed do you. What is their proof of existence? I would have to say their work. The same with the great Buddha’s of the past. Several of the great teachers of the past have continue to exist in history. The same can be said of Jesus. I can find no proof of Jesus the deity really living outside of the bible. But there are the teachings of Jesus the Gnostic (teacher) outside of the bible. The Gnostic gospels for example have a lot of Jesus’s teachings. 
 
Your question is a highly contested question from both sides of the issue and has been for some time.
http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/did-jesus-really-exist-2/

Nobody is suggesting that Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato were supernatural figures who rose bodily into heaven and had a special relationship with god or spoke for god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The existence of ancient Greek philosophers is not extraordinary. That there were human philosophers in the time and place these men are claimed to have lived is a rational claim. There is nothing extraordinary about it. No one is claiming they performed miracles. No one is claiming they were anything more than ordinary men who were great thinkers. No one is claiming they were gods. There was a lot more written about them in their lifetimes than was ever written about Jesus in his. There is no reason to doubt their existence.

[ Edited: 04 February 2017 12:13 AM by LoisL ]
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Posted: 04 February 2017 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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LoisL - 04 February 2017 12:09 AM
MikeYohe - 02 February 2017 10:58 PM
LoisL - 02 February 2017 12:36 AM

Please provide us with some of this evidence that Jesus was real. I have not seen any of it. But since you are so sure of yourself, please tell us about it. PS. Please don’t use the bible in an attempt to prove the bible.

 
Lois, I did not give you any proof for your question about Jesus. I will try and explain my thoughts on that. You would not ask the same question about, let’s say Greek philosophers for example. You don’t question if Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato existed do you. What is their proof of existence? I would have to say their work. The same with the great Buddha’s of the past. Several of the great teachers of the past have continue to exist in history. The same can be said of Jesus. I can find no proof of Jesus the deity really living outside of the bible. But there are the teachings of Jesus the Gnostic (teacher) outside of the bible. The Gnostic gospels for example have a lot of Jesus’s teachings. 
 
Your question is a highly contested question from both sides of the issue and has been for some time.
http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/did-jesus-really-exist-2/

Nobody is suggesting that Zeno, Pythagoras, Socrates or Plato were supernatural figures who rose bodily into heaven and had a special relationship with god or spoke for god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The existence of ancient Greek philosophers is not extraordinary. That there were human philosophers in the time and place these men are claimed to have lived is a rational claim. There is nothing extraordinary about it. No one is claiming they performed miracles. No one is claiming they were anything more than ordinary men who were great thinkers. No one is claiming they were gods. There was a lot more written about them in their lifetimes than was ever written about Jesus in his. There is no reason to doubt their existence.

There is nothing that unusual about gods being born on the solstice from a virgin and having twelve disciples either. And if we studied religion like we study philosophy that would be better understood. The question then becomes were god teachers or judges at the time of Jesus? Egyptian gods did not teach but they controlled the knowledge. The colleges at the time were moving from the temples to regular universities but they still had a very religious curriculum. If you look at the teachers of John and Paul, this if from memory so I think I got the right disciples. Their religious background are connected to Gnostic teachers. And that was not Jesus. So, you have Jesus with Gnostic knowledge gathering others with some Gnostic background. To do what? What was Jesus’s goal? Get rid of that drummer boy thinking that he was poor and the son of god. Jesus never claimed any of that. I got to run right now and will have to continual when I get back, sorry.

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