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The Secret of Jesus’ Passion
Posted: 12 February 2017 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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MikeYohe - 11 February 2017 05:36 PM

Unsubstantiated data. After all your talk, you post without any back up data! Are you on a one way street? Myself, if there is no scientific data, then one has to use scientific logic. The question then becomes, is it logical that Jesus was a real man? Is it logical that there may have been more than one Jesus? Is it logical that Jesus was a real man and did not see himself as a god? Is it possible that Jesus was doing what he was doing because he was running for a political office? Is it logical that there was no Jesus at all and all this was made up by group of conspiracy theorists? You better start looking at one or two of these theories, if you want to stop spinning your wheels decades after decades in the same rut.

That takes some nerve, to call my explanation of your unsubstantiated data, “unsubstantiated data”. Here’s the introduction Matthew from the NIV Study Bible. This is a mainstream Bible. You could find one in just about any church. It is a mainstream view that we have no idea who these people are. It is widely known that Catholics found some bones, put them in a casket and slapped a name on it. In the case of Jesus, they found a stone with that name on it and said, “hey, look, Jesus!” I’ve tried to tell you things like this many times and you never accept it. You quickly change the subject, so no, I"m not providing any other links.

You, on the other hand, could provide just one. One decent, peer reviewed article that shows why any one of those tombs is definitely the same guy as the one in the Bible, and I would be forced to at least consider it.

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Posted: 12 February 2017 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Lausten - 12 February 2017 07:46 AM

You, on the other hand, could provide just one. One decent, peer reviewed article that shows why any one of those tombs is definitely the same guy as the one in the Bible, and I would be forced to at least consider it.

I can do you better than a stinking study.  I got the pictures!

113.jpg
that’s the real thing buddy.
There are lots of fragments of the True Cross in various churches around the world. The fragments in the picture above are in the Imperial Treasury in Vienna, Austria.
25.jpg
Yeah and that’s the nail smarty pants.
Speaking of pants, how about his shirt.  Jesus could not have worn that shirt had Jesus not been real!
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That’s just the beginning of it.  Want some blood, we got blood. 
Where did the blood come from?  Well we got the spear too!!!!!

Oh and how can you explain away the Gold, frankincense, and myrrh that the three wise men gave the blessed babe.

Yeah, I got the evidence alright.  Well okay I don’t have the evidence, I got the pictures.  ahh, don’t look at me like that… okay I don’t have the pictures, but I got a link
https://churchpop.com/2015/11/12/11-amazing-relics-from-the-life-of-our-lord-jesus/  cool smile

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Posted: 14 February 2017 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Lausten - 03 February 2017 10:10 AM

And for the millionth time, there aren’t billions of people worshiping Socrates. There aren’t end of the world theories coming out every few years that people believe and kill their children as a response to them. Congress doesn’t invoke the name of Socrates when suggesting we ban Muslims from coming to America.

I disagree with your thinking here. The names used are nothing more than the messenger of an “idea or concept”. So when people worship “Jesus”. Are they worshiping the name “Jesus”? Or are they worshiping the ideas and concepts that Jesus talks about? Jesus was a teacher. Which means he taught what he had learned. Jesus had almost no original thoughts or concepts of his own. The evolution of religion is older ideas and traditions that are passed down generation to generation and every now and then a new idea or tradition is added. It is a known fact that when older religions traveled to new countries and were adopted by that country that the names, dates and places were changed to reflex the new country. It is said that even when the GODs had different names, that people of different countries were able to relate them to the GODs that they knew even though the names were different. Because the stories were recognized as having the same ideas as gods that they knew.
 
It is very possible that Jesus used some of Socrates ideas and Socrates ideas were ideas that had been passed down to him.
https://www.sporcle.com/games/TJL/jesus_or_socrates
 
One should not exclude the research done on Stoicism and how it may have influenced the NT.
http://stoicism.biblestudyinfo.com/
http://www.equip.org/article/was-the-new-testament-influenced-by-stoicism/
 
Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or “persistent evil”—of humankind,[31] and the futility and temporarity of worldly possessions and attachments. Both encourage Ascesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions such as lust, and envy, so that the higher possibilities of one’s humanity can be awakened and developed.
 
Stoic writings such as the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius have been highly regarded by many Christians throughout the centuries. The Stoic ideal of dispassion is accepted to this day as the perfect moral state by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Saint Ambrose of Milan was known for applying Stoic philosophy to his theology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

[ Edited: 14 February 2017 01:34 AM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 14 February 2017 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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I’m going to take it that you have conceded all the points I made in the last 2 pages since you gave up on them and rebooted an earlier part of his thread.

You’re right, sort of. No god would last beyond a generation if they didn’t have some good ideas, rooted in ancient human wisdom. The purpose of religion is to codify ideas and attach them to characters. Then the illiterate don’t need to remember logic and facts, just names and stories, and “be like Jesus”. So, I’m not sure you were even disagreeing with what I said about Socrates. I was saying what’s important about Socrates IS his ideas, not the man himself.

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Posted: 15 February 2017 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Lausten - 14 February 2017 04:40 AM

I’m going to take it that you have conceded all the points I made in the last 2 pages since you gave up on them and rebooted an earlier part of his thread.

You’re right, sort of. No god would last beyond a generation if they didn’t have some good ideas, rooted in ancient human wisdom. The purpose of religion is to codify ideas and attach them to characters. Then the illiterate don’t need to remember logic and facts, just names and stories, and “be like Jesus”. So, I’m not sure you were even disagreeing with what I said about Socrates. I was saying what’s important about Socrates IS his ideas, not the man himself.

Your right.
I think of Socrates as a philosopher. A philosopher job is to keep mankind’s ideas in context with changing social and political thinking so that the main concepts being passed down remains understood. Where Jesus’s job as a teacher was to take the philosopher’s work and make it understood by the masses.
 
The question becomes, was Jesus real, correct? One has to ask, why there was so many stories about Jesus written. Take the Gospel of Judas for example. It is Gnostic but talks about Jesus being Barbelo. And in the Gnostic Trinity there is the Father, Mother and Son. Each is a perfect aeon. The gospel was written sometime between when the NT Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written.
 
The parallels of both religions goes back to the OT and the Gnostic dyad ideas are quite old with the Sophia thinking. The NT has a male chauvinism theme where the Gnostic religion doesn’t and women are equal. Where Gnostic is more Egyptian and the NT is more Greek and Roman.
 
Point being, if Jesus’s goal was religious, then why did several religions pop up after Jesus? There should only be one religion. If Jesus was political (and remember political leaders were gods in Jesus’s time) and a teacher that was very popular with the people, then he may have been worshiped after death just like the Buddha’s (teachers only, not gods) of the same time were worshiped. If you look at India for example, they have many religions based on Hindu. Most started by worshiping a Buddha.

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Posted: 16 February 2017 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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MikeYohe - 15 February 2017 03:31 AM

There should only be one religion.

Where the hell did you pull that one out of?

WHO SAYS?

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Posted: 16 February 2017 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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MikeYohe - 15 February 2017 03:31 AM

I think of Socrates as a philosopher.

So does everyone, Sherlock.

A philosopher (sic) job is to keep mankind’s ideas in context with changing social and political thinking so that the main concepts being passed down remains (sic) understood. Where Jesus’s (sic) job as a teacher was to take the philosopher’s work and make it understood by the masses.

There you go again, making up definitions to fit your worldview. As usual, your definition makes no sense.
 

The question becomes, was Jesus real, correct? One has to ask, why there was so many stories about Jesus written. Take the Gospel of Judas for example. It is Gnostic but talks about Jesus being Barbelo.

Judas thought Jesus was a woman? That’s new to me. Maybe he was a cross dresser.

Point being, if Jesus’s goal was religious, then why did several religions pop up after Jesus?

For the sake of discussion I’ll assume Jesus actually existed. Have you ever played the telephone game? Things get changed with each retelling, that’s how different religions and sects develop.

There should only be one religion.

If there were an all powerful god watching over us and keeping us safe there might be only one religion. Absent that, people will misconstrue things, change them in retelling, project their own desires onto religious teachings and generally develop the religion they want. This is looking at just how different religions could develop in one area in a short time.

If Jesus was political (and remember political leaders were gods in Jesus’s time) and a teacher that was very popular with the people, then he may have been worshiped after death just like the Buddha’s (teachers only, not gods) of the same time were worshiped. If you look at India for example, they have many religions based on Hindu. Most started by worshiping a Buddha.

If my feet would fit a railroad track I’d be a train. It is far more productive to look at facts than speculate on what-ifs. Fact is there is no evidence the Jesus presented in the Bible ever lived, so discussing your “if” speculation is a waste of time.

[ Edited: 20 February 2017 07:47 AM by DarronS ]
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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 16 February 2017 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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DarronS - 16 February 2017 08:19 AM
MikeYohe - 15 February 2017 03:31 AM
Lausten - 14 February 2017 04:40 AM

I think of Socrates as a philosopher.

Sp does everyone, Sherlock.

I know pretty much everyone sees this, but Darron is referring to Mike as “Sherlock”. The quoting is a bit off. I wish this forum would be a little easier with it’s tags.

That’s just an idle complaint, nothing personal to you hard working mods.

As for Mike, I lose my patience with him pretty quickly these days. I’ll do the occasional fact check on him, but I’m not going to discuss theories about religion with him.

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Posted: 16 February 2017 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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Sorry about that Lausten. I fixed the formatting and corrected the typo.

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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 16 February 2017 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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I found a great quote, attributed to Christopher Hitchens.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

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Posted: 18 February 2017 09:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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LoisL - 16 February 2017 02:45 PM

I found a great quote, attributed to Christopher Hitchens.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And despite visiting this forum earlier today, Yohe has offered nothing to back his outlandish comments. Typical.

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Posted: 23 February 2017 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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I am fond of facts because they are true even if you don’t believe them.  I have seen no facts to verify the Jesus of the Bible, that dinosaurs still live to day or little green men are visiting us.  If this supposed Jesus would get out of his tomb and talk to us, if a dinosaur came walking out of the woods, or the little green men landed in my back yard, you would get my attention BIG TIME, but until then not so much.

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Posted: 23 February 2017 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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deros - 23 February 2017 05:09 AM

I am fond of facts because they are true even if you don’t believe them.  I have seen no facts to verify the Jesus of the Bible, that dinosaurs still live to day or little green men are visiting us.  If this supposed Jesus would get out of his tomb and talk to us, if a dinosaur came walking out of the woods, or the little green men landed in my back yard, you would get my attention BIG TIME, but until then not so much.

This was probably mentioned earlier, but I think most biblical scholars (the real ones, like Bart Ehrman) agree there was a person called Jesus (Joshua actually). And they agree on a few things he actually said, versus words others put in his mouth, and that those things were good, ethical, etc. None of that of course has anything to do with this historical person being the son of god, the messiah, etc.

What’s more interesting though, and this is in the book I mentioned by Hugh Schonfield, is that Jesus, like many other jewish men of his time, may have thought he himself was the Messiah. And so he spoke and acted accordingly. Nothing mischievous going on, just a religious guy thinking he was The One. But again, even that has nothing to do with actually Being the son of god, etc.

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Posted: 23 February 2017 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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I can’t find the the list, because there is so much crap about this topic of historical consensus, but it’s somewhere around 7 or 8 useless details. The quotes from the Bible that are agreed to be authentic are not the key ones, like “render unto Caesar” or “why have you forsaken me”. Crucifixion is even suspect, Pilate is suspect, but I think the consensus is something like “arrested or killed by the State”. Anyway, it’s nothing on the order of legitimating a religion, or even being able to determine an agenda or plan by the guy.

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Posted: 23 February 2017 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Okay, let me try to get this thread back on track, since I happen to come across this piece I’d posted at my CC blog a couple years back.
Ironically, the start of the essay was a comment over here at CFI.


It’s funny I used to feel really squeamish about writing and sharing stuff like this.  But, with every additional year of actively engaging the right-wing crowd
their hollowness becomes more apparent.
(at least the one’s on the internet - in real life the right wingers I know are of a different breed, but then I’m fortunate enough to live in rural Colorado.)


But then the dialogue has been a learning process for me, whereas it seems like folks such as Anthony Watts, Mc/Mc’s, Rep Lamar Smith, J.Steele, V., M., and the like seem confined to spinning around in their delusional bubble.  Nothing new, nothing ever learned, simply an emotional hatred of all things they decided to perceive as “left”.
Yeah, some of them are doing great, but it won’t last.

And me, what the hell am I doing?  Reaching out for the few for whom it may make a difference.  I imagine the inevitable future heading our way. 
Increasing disruptions, until a collapse of the global system we’ve come to depend on.  Real collapse such as ports and cities and the infrastructure that keeps global communication system alive, damaged beyond repair.
Not everywhere at the same time.  More like acid blotches here and there until they run together.  But, when the grocery stores and gas stations no longer getting stocked,
all hell will break out for a short time.  Most all of us who are around for those days (me included) won’t get through it.  But, some where, some will. 
A few here and there who’ve already divorced themselves from our society and who got lucky in the climate change roulette game, remember, after timing, its location, location, location.

During the increasing turmoil as the reality what we have done soaks in current belief systems will be put to the test. 
After all, it will be clear to many that they have directly helped and supported the means of our own self destruction.
Still,
people will always need some sort of spiritual sustenance.  I’m simply share my own, which I know is in more harmony with this physical planet we were born out of
and will die back into, than any of those petty tribal Holy Books of Abraham’s spawn.

THURSDAY, MARCH 26, 2015
You, me, we don’t need a scriptural “God” - Knowing Evolution Is Enough!
This started as a comment at CenterForInquiry Forum but it ballooned into an essay and since it turned into a pretty fair presentation of my thoughts on this topic,
I figure I’d post it over here.
_____________________________________

Back to the original thought:
“When circumstances are terrible, certainly you will suspend your atheism.”

Why?  For what purpose?

Some put all this stock in Holy Books and people’s interpretations of those books along with the images we weave in our minds, created out of the desires in our hearts. 
But that’s your/their god, a security blanket, and we all need our security blankets, I’m not knocking that. 
It’s the arrogance and defensive super-natural Faith folks imbibe it with, (exemplified in that bold boast at the start of this essay), that’s over the top.

There are some who have gone through personal struggles and rebirths, folks who understand Jesus’s Passion for what it is, a guide (support and inspiration) for our own personal spiritual journeys - with it’s various personal trials and tribulations, for aid and support in transitioning through our own lives, from dependent, self-centered, selfish child, into balanced self sufficient adulthood and eventually beyond to wise person and adept societal matriarch or patriarch (metaphorically speaking) - according to each circumstance.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Once one’s spiritual foundation grows beyond our mental images of God and Holy Stories (the Shadow Plays that help us glimpse a greater awareness)
that awe gets transferred to the reality of our Mother Earth, the organism that created this world and each of us -
and a totally different, much more solid, dare I say mature, type of spiritual foundation is formed.

Rooted in a deep understanding of Evolution’s Pageant and its creation of ever more complex building blocks that drove yet more complexity. 
The evolution of atomic particles and elements, gravity and star formation,  Ah, the stars, factories creating one element after another, up to Iron. 
Then the wonder of exploding giant stars (Super Novas) that created all the heavier elements in a flash. 
Thus making future complex worlds possible. 
Fascinating. 
Gravity and solar system formation and the wonder of our planet’s development.  Then that early addition of the moon, by way of a furious collision! 
Don’t that beat all in the Holy Books?

The early moon’s orbit was much closer to Earth with constant gravitational churning…
friction and motion forced onto a cooling planet (think birth of tectonics)
Early proto continents being rhythmically hammered by massive tidal waves the likes of which we can’t imagine.

The slow evolution of early life, as basic biological systems were “experimented” with, developed, discarded, changed, refined
always increasing an internal store of information, and always striving for ever more complexity.

But it’s not just life’s development.  If you want to appreciate Creation you also have to understand that most of today’s minerals
evolved out of an intimate duet with life forces. 

We’ve also learned that the very face of our planet and it’s geologic structures are also creations of life forces during their intimate dance with geologic forces. 
It’s incomprehensibly amazing and I’m an intimate part of (and witness to) that flow of time and ceaseless learning and yearning.

I feel like I’m one of Creation’s appointed witnesses, striving to record all I can as I traverse my few years on this amazing planet. 
To spiritually grasp the amazing billions year long drive of life towards ever more awareness and manipulatory abilities.

To literally, spiritually, viscerally know that I am a part of it -
that beat’s hell and heaven out of any manmade book and thoughts anyone can wave at me.

My solidity is the ground under my feet and my reassurance is the blood coursing through my body that contains star dust along with the vestiges of life’s triumphs
reaching back to the beginnings of this pageant call Earth. 

To even partially appreciate Creation’s and life’s unquenchable quest to view itself and understand itself, to grasp that humanity is
one of it’s most extraordinary summit stories and I’m one of them. 
Possessing the profoundest gift of being aware of my part in this passion play of creation,
quite beyond human vanities.

The knowledge that I’ll be gone pretty soon, is met with the knowledge that I will remain and be absorbed back into the pageant as it moves forward.

All I need is knowing I’ve been blessed with a life well lived as witness to the wonders of Creation and humanity and my own short existence.
No scriptural storytelling comes close to offering that sort of comfort and security.


Bottomline:
No scripture, with it’s smoke and mirrors imagery (and human conflict), can come close to offering the solidity of purpose (and peace with the thought of death)
that a deep evolutionary awareness provides ! 

http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2015/03/plz-no-god-evolution-enough.html

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