What should the penalty be for killing your child with alt. med.?
Posted: 27 February 2017 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tamara-lovett-holistic-medicine-trial-1.3869951
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/02/24/parents-found-guilty-of-first-degree-murder-in-death-of-diabetic-starved-son.html

These example from Alberta in just the last few months are hopefully a wake-up call to the many other like-minded parents out there.

Do we treat them as simply ignorant and deluded, or as evil killers?  They are most likely brainwashed by their own parents and church, misled by false advertising, and failed by the education system.

I find it hard to have an impartial view of the situation, especially in the second example above, which is absolutely sickening.  But if they have a world view that is deeply held and they are honestly doing what they think is right, how can you punish them?

The ideal solution, in my opinion, would be to remove any living children then lock them up and educate/unbrainwash them, but not “punish” them (unless there are parts of the case that warrant it.)  That’s not a popular stance when the tortuously long, slow, painful death death of a child is involved, but it’s the correct one.

The majority of you on here are thoughtful and smart and I respect your opinions.  Is my ideal solution the same as yours, or am I missing something?

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Posted: 28 February 2017 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I don’t think any particular course of punishment is necessary for these events. The legal system in America (& Canada I hope) ought to be able to handle all mitigating factors and administer the right penalty.

Something to focus on here is the fact that it’s unnatural to kill your own offspring or ingore their distress - as these parents did here, so it’s incorrect to think religion killed these kids. My guess is the parents were on drugs or mentally disturbed.

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Posted: 28 February 2017 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The problem is that neither set of parents were on drugs or more mentally disturbed than any other religious fanatic.  My question was, when ignorance and religion come into play, how do you punish a killer?  We do have laws, and in both cases in my original post, the parents were dealt with by being sent to prison. 

But is prison the right solution when it’s simply ignorance and/or a belief system that results in the crime?  Why does a naturopath need punishment when all they are is doing what they think is right based on faulty reasoning/beliefs- you can’t punish someone into knowledge.  So prison ends up being a storage place for people who aren’t a menace to anyone except their family.  We almost need a parallel system that is simply focused and mandatory education.

I can’t deny that the story of the 15 year-old boy who was under 40 pounds when he died has my blood boiling, but again, anger at ignorance is useless.

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Posted: 28 February 2017 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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3point14rat - 28 February 2017 03:39 PM

The problem is that neither set of parents were on drugs or more mentally disturbed than any other religious fanatic.  My question was, when ignorance and religion come into play, how do you punish a killer?  We do have laws, and in both cases in my original post, the parents were dealt with by being sent to prison. 

But is prison the right solution when it’s simply ignorance and/or a belief system that results in the crime?  Why does a naturopath need punishment when all they are is doing what they think is right based on faulty reasoning/beliefs- you can’t punish someone into knowledge.  So prison ends up being a storage place for people who aren’t a menace to anyone except their family.  We almost need a parallel system that is simply focused and mandatory education.

I can’t deny that the story of the 15 year-old boy who was under 40 pounds when he died has my blood boiling, but again, anger at ignorance is useless.

Prison is the correct solution. They will get whatever treatment they need while incarcerated because they are obviously mentally ill or under the influence.

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Posted: 28 February 2017 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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3point14rat - 28 February 2017 03:39 PM

The problem is that neither set of parents were on drugs or more mentally disturbed than any other religious fanatic.  My question was, when ignorance and religion come into play, how do you punish a killer?  We do have laws, and in both cases in my original post, the parents were dealt with by being sent to prison. 

But is prison the right solution when it’s simply ignorance and/or a belief system that results in the crime?  Why does a naturopath need punishment when all they are is doing what they think is right based on faulty reasoning/beliefs- you can’t punish someone into knowledge.  So prison ends up being a storage place for people who aren’t a menace to anyone except their family.  We almost need a parallel system that is simply focused and mandatory education.

I can’t deny that the story of the 15 year-old boy who was under 40 pounds when he died has my blood boiling, but again, anger at ignorance is useless.

So you’d just let it slide?

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Posted: 01 March 2017 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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LoisL - 28 February 2017 09:22 PM

So you’d just let it slide?

No. 

I default to education in cases where simple ignorance is the cause of the ‘crime’.  Obviously sociopathic/psychopathic/mentally handicapped individuals need to be put away for the safety of all, and education will have little or no effect.

I was just wondering where others stood regarding the punishment of ignorance.  Is ‘punishment’ even the right way of dealing with it?  If a parent has been taught that you should treat a toothache with a herbal poultice and their child gets a bone infection in their jaw that causes them to lose part of it, should the parent be punished or educated?  How will prison make any difference other than to possibly frighten other parents with similar ideas into maybe not doing the same thing?  Fear is a crappy way of influencing people.

If you think punishment is the solution, how will it improve any situation beyond taking those people away from the few that they could affect?

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Posted: 01 March 2017 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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3point14rat - 01 March 2017 08:12 AM
LoisL - 28 February 2017 09:22 PM

So you’d just let it slide?

No. 

I default to education in cases where simple ignorance is the cause of the ‘crime’.  Obviously sociopathic/psychopathic/mentally handicapped individuals need to be put away for the safety of all, and education will have little or no effect.

I was just wondering where others stood regarding the punishment of ignorance.  Is ‘punishment’ even the right way of dealing with it?  If a parent has been taught that you should treat a toothache with a herbal poultice and their child gets a bone infection in their jaw that causes them to lose part of it, should the parent be punished or educated?  How will prison make any difference other than to possibly frighten other parents with similar ideas into maybe not doing the same thing?  Fear is a crappy way of influencing people.

If you think punishment is the solution, how will it improve any situation beyond taking those people away from the few that they could affect?

That seems like a good start. That’s what prison should be for—to protect the public from psychos and fools, even if the victims are their own children. Why allow them to continue their assaults?

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Posted: 01 March 2017 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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LoisL - 01 March 2017 10:44 AM

That seems like a good start. That’s what prison should be for—to protect the public from psychos and fools, even if the victims are their own children. Why allow them to continue their assaults?

I agree that ignorant people should be put away along with psychos, to protect others.  But I’m not so sure that a life-sentence will benefit anyone in these cases. 

A religious extremist isn’t a criminal, they’ve simply been conned into believing something that isn’t true.  The parents who let their son suffer for years and finally die won’t exit prison more informed and better parents, they’ll come out feeling wronged by the law and that their son is in a better place.  Educate them, and if that doesn’t work, chemically castrate them so they can’t have more children to torture.  What are there benefits to a long prison sentence that outweigh the benefits of living in a halfway-house and receive intensive education/deprogramming?

My human need for retribution screams in frustration when I type this, but my rational brain tells me it’s right.

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Posted: 01 March 2017 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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3point14rat - 01 March 2017 12:37 PM
LoisL - 01 March 2017 10:44 AM

That seems like a good start. That’s what prison should be for—to protect the public from psychos and fools, even if the victims are their own children. Why allow them to continue their assaults?

I agree that ignorant people should be put away along with psychos, to protect others.  But I’m not so sure that a life-sentence will benefit anyone in these cases. 

A religious extremist isn’t a criminal, they’ve simply been conned into believing something that isn’t true.  The parents who let their son suffer for years and finally die won’t exit prison more informed and better parents, they’ll come out feeling wronged by the law and that their son is in a better place.  Educate them, and if that doesn’t work, chemically castrate them so they can’t have more children to torture.  What are there benefits to a long prison sentence that outweigh the benefits of living in a halfway-house and receive intensive education/deprogramming?

My human need for retribution screams in frustration when I type this, but my rational brain tells me it’s right.

There is only so much that can be done legally. You can’t castrate people. They can have their children taken away and any orthers they have taken away. A good 5-10 years in prison might get their attention. And they should get daily education in the evils of religious extremism, If you are going to give them a pass because they are religious etremists you’d have to give everyone a pass who exhibits religious extremism. To my mind, that’s no excuse. If people knew they’d be held accountable for actions inspired by extreme religious beliefs, maybe they’d start thinking when they see their fellow belivers going to prison for any crimes that result from it. I am not one to give a pass to religious belief. After all, most terrorists and many murderers and abusers are contaminated by extreme religious belief. Would you give them a pass, too? We have to draw the line somewhere.

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Posted: 02 March 2017 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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The penalty, if any, should be far less than a parent who is found guilty of not seatbelting their child. And then the child dies in a car wreck.

Seatbelts are mandated by law. Reasonable people know they save lives as well.
And in the case of alt meds? Hmnn?


Why does the title here say, “killing your child with alt meds”?

Do you think the courts can show an intent to kill in this instance?

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Posted: 02 March 2017 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 March 2017 06:16 AM

The penalty, if any, should be far less than a parent who is found guilty of not seatbelting their child. And then the child dies in a car wreck.

Seatbelts are mandated by law. Reasonable people know they save lives as well.
And in the case of alt meds? Hmnn?


Why does the title here say, “killing your child with alt meds”?

Do you think the courts can show an intent to kill in this instance?

Does a drunk driver intendto kill anyone? Even manslaughter carries a penalty.

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Posted: 02 March 2017 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 March 2017 06:16 AM

The penalty, if any, should be far less than a parent who is found guilty of not seatbelting their child. And then the child dies in a car wreck.

Seatbelts are mandated by law. Reasonable people know they save lives as well.
And in the case of alt meds? Hmnn?


Why does the title here say, “killing your child with alt meds”?

Do you think the courts can show an intent to kill in this instance?

Yes.  Negligence is worse than ignorance.  Ignorance is honest stupidity while negligence is willful laziness.  They should be treated differently by the courts.

The title is not meant to indicate intent.  It is simply to ask what kind of penalty/correction should be given to parents who have a child die from alternative treatment that’s administered because of ignorance.

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Posted: 02 March 2017 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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3point14rat - 02 March 2017 10:01 AM

Yes.  Negligence is worse than ignorance.  Ignorance is honest stupidity while negligence is willful laziness.  They should be treated differently by the courts.

I would have to say a fair, reasonable justice system would have to lean on the side of
ignorance versus any kind of negligence.
Unless evidence comes forth that a doctor or hospital strongly, and I mean strongly recommended or insisted upon another form
of treatment…the correct form of treatment.
So if they have that evidence I could lean towards negligence.
Please withhold anything you may have heard in the papers or online. Nothing is evidence until it is presented and accepted in court.

The title is not meant to indicate intent.  It is simply to ask what kind of penalty/correction should be given to parents who have a child die from alternative treatment that’s administered because of ignorance.

Oh, so we’ve gone from “penalty for killing your child” to “child dies from medicine”...alt medicine.

Also you said “ignorance” just here in this last part.
I thought you were for accusing negligence.

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Posted: 04 March 2017 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 March 2017 03:49 PM
3point14rat - 02 March 2017 10:01 AM

Yes.  Negligence is worse than ignorance.  Ignorance is honest stupidity while negligence is willful laziness.  They should be treated differently by the courts.

I would have to say a fair, reasonable justice system would have to lean on the side of
ignorance versus any kind of negligence.
Unless evidence comes forth that a doctor or hospital strongly, and I mean strongly recommended or insisted upon another form
of treatment…the correct form of treatment.
So if they have that evidence I could lean towards negligence.
Please withhold anything you may have heard in the papers or online. Nothing is evidence until it is presented and accepted in court.

The title is not meant to indicate intent.  It is simply to ask what kind of penalty/correction should be given to parents who have a child die from alternative treatment that’s administered because of ignorance.

Oh, so we’ve gone from “penalty for killing your child” to “child dies from medicine”...alt medicine.

Also you said “ignorance” just here in this last part.
I thought you were for accusing negligence.

I agree with the first part of your post, especially the part about evidence in court. Most of my information comes from CBC radio news, which is a reputable source, but can only report what they know.

As for the second part, I meant to ask what the penalty should be for parents who use alt. med. on their child who dies as a result. 

Finally, in the last part, you indicate you though I was talking about parental negligence up to now. I was always meaning parental ignorance- parents who reject standard medicine in favour of alternative treatments simply because they are misinformed.  Do we hand them a harsh sentence or treat them with sympathy and try to educate/unbrainwash them.

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Posted: 05 March 2017 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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3point14rat - 04 March 2017 04:53 PM

Finally, in the last part, you indicate you though I was talking about parental negligence up to now. I was always meaning parental ignorance- parents who reject standard medicine in favour of alternative treatments simply because they are misinformed.  Do we hand them a harsh sentence or treat them with sympathy and try to educate/unbrainwash them.

No we don’t hand them a harsh sentence-if any at all.
They lost a child. Isn’t that enough?

The parents didn’t kill their child..as your title says.
The child died from a disease. Thousands of kids die from disease every day.

This seems to be an event of such infrequency in the background of health and wellness in Western Nations.
Why is this such a big issue in the first place?

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Posted: 05 March 2017 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Perhaps consider a progressive solution that would do nothing but consider a society of people that is unable to convince the general population that such approaches are deadly reconsider its educational curriculum, community level information systems, and integrity of linking a healthy intent to healthy processes with healthy outcomes.

The root of these problems are educational. A society that rejects unproven miracles for any and all reasons as found in the Bible or Book of Mormon, Mary Baker Eddy, or the Golden Dawn or Egyptian book of the dead at all levels relative to medicine would be the first steps. Without this step, are the parents really to blame for death?

Removing the pressures applied by the lunacy of belief in supernatural beings and powers would allow for greater learning, life, love and human compassion leading to less harmful escape through drugs, less economic deprivation, less hate crime, less of all things deemed harmful to humanity for religion itself is the source and inflow of intractable ignorance.

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