The Myth of the Crucifixion
Posted: 02 May 2017 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]
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The relationship Paul identifies in Galatians 3:13 between Christ’s crucifixion and Deuteronomy 21:22-23 is interesting because it is the one place in the typology argument where a mythicist might argue the New Testament crucifixion act itself is typology. That doesn’t help answering whether Paul started with memory of the historical Jesus being crucified and then shaped it according to Deuteronomy 21:22-23 in Galatians 3:13, or if Paul is indicating in Galatians 3:13 that he discovered that the celestial Jesus was crucified by an allegorical reading of Deuteronomy 21:22-23?

Strauss said: “when we find details in the life of Jesus evidently sketched after the pattern of these prophecies and prototypes, we cannot but suspect that they are rather mythical than historical. (Life of Jesus, Critically Examined, p. 89)”

Likely the clearest Prophecy about Jesus is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

The only thing is, Isaiah wasn’t making a prophesy aboout Jesus. Mark was doing a haggadic midrash on Isaiah. So, Mark depicts Jesus as one who is despised and rejected, a man of sorrow acquainted with grief. He then describes Jesus as wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities. The Servant in Isaiah, like Jesus in Mark, is silent before his accusers. In Isaiah it says of the servant with his stripes we are healed, which Mark turned into the story of the scourging of Jesus. This is, in part, is where atonement theology comes from, but it would be silly to say II Isaiah was talking about atonement. The servant is numbered among the transgressors in Isaiah, so Jesus is crucified between two thieves. The Isaiah servant would make his grave with the rich, So Jesus is buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a person of means.

Then, as Dr. Robert Price says

The substructure for the crucifixion in chapter 15 is, as all recognize, Psalm 22, from which derive all the major details, including the implicit piercing of hands and feet (Mark 24//Psalm 22:16b), the dividing of his garments and casting lots for them (Mark 15:24//Psalm 22:18), the “wagging heads” of the mockers (Mark 15:20//Psalm 22:7), and of course the cry of dereliction, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34//Psalm 22:1). Matthew adds another quote, “He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now if he desires him” (Matthew 7:43//Psalm 22:8), as well as a strong allusion (“for he said, ‘I am the son of God’” 27:43b) to Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20, which underlies the whole story anyway (Miller, p. 362), “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life: for if the righteous man is God’s son he will help him and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture that we may find out how gentle he is and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

As for other details, Crossan (p. 198) points out that the darkness at noon comes from Amos 8:9, while the vinegar and gall come from Psalm 69:21. It is remarkable that Mark does anything but call attention to the scriptural basis for the crucifixion account. There is nothing said of scripture being fulfilled here. It is all simply presented as the events of Jesus’ execution. It is we who must ferret out the real sources of the story. This is quite different, e.g., in John, where explicit scripture citations are given, e.g., for Jesus’ legs not being broken to hasten his death (John 19:36), either Exodus 12:10, Numbers 9:12, or Psalm 34:19-20 (Crossan, p. 168). Whence did Mark derive the tearing asunder of the Temple veil, from top to bottom (Mark 15:38)? Perhaps from the death of Hector in the Iliad (MacDonald, pp. 144-145). Hector dies forsaken by Zeus. The women of Troy watched from afar off (as the Galilean women do in Mark 15:40), and the whole of Troy mourned as if their city had already been destroyed “from top to bottom,” just as the ripping of the veil seems to be a portent of Jerusalem’s eventual doom.

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Posted: 02 May 2017 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας (“they have dug my hands and feet”), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as “pierced”.

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Posted: 02 May 2017 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Myth of the Crucifixion seems to me you limit yourself by focusing on an event.
It is not about the event.

It’s not about the Crucifixion, it’s about the PASSION of Christ.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-passion-of-jesus-christ.html
That is the suffering, death, and resurrection.

After many decades of living, some filled with strive and pain, I understand the beauty and immortality in the Lesson of The Passion in that
Jesus serves as a guide and support as we (petty, fearful, greedy, insecure, at time hateful and too often over compensating humans)
weather our own trials and tribulations.  A support when it’s time for you to burn on the cross of your own guilts whatever they may be.

Here’s why it’s important, for most facing our own sins is devastating, one becomes as worthless, worth non-existence,
but though the act of honesty absorbing our own guilt is as burning on a cross.
There is the new day that follows.
One wakes up a new person, Rebirth is not too dramatic a label to paste onto the transformation.

This is why humanity will never rid itself of the belief in Jesus -

The horror is that people constantly try to twist that beautiful Jesus into some God of Creation and Time, Live and Love.

It’s ludicrous - and it’s purely a political bludgeon.

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Posted: 02 May 2017 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 02 May 2017 01:08 PM

This is why humanity will never rid itself of the belief in Jesus

Because it serves as a lesson plan, it provides support, comfort,
hope and promise in a way no other human effort poem, story or art has been able to.

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Posted: 02 May 2017 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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john76 - 02 May 2017 12:33 PM

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας (“they have dug my hands and feet”), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as “pierced”.

Do you think ancient words hold the answers?

What about examining the real living life and world around you yourself?

Or did your God stop embedding answers into Her Universe?

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Posted: 03 May 2017 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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The problem with everything you said is that it’s much ado about nothing. You can add all the fancy theology talk, biblical exegesis, jargon, etc. It’s just so much verbal fluff that makes things appear to be meaningful and real. But it’s just so much yapping about a person who had some nices things to say, just as many before and after him did. Nothing more. You might as well be talking about unicorns.

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Posted: 12 May 2017 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Like most here, I find the use of the Bible as a source of information on anything other than other words in the Bible, to be annoying and useless. 

I’m attending a Bible study with some friends (the topic is the Lee Strobel book, Case for Christ) and we’ve had only one session so far and we’ll have one every other week for six sessions.  I tried to read the book it’s based on, but it’s just fake questions to Bible ‘scholars’. 

I really enjoy the time spent with the Bible study group because they’re all so nice.  Lots of smart people, a surprising number of whom have studied ancient languages in order to read the Bible in it’s original tongue, and a few who have attended theological schools and are or have been leaders in church.

They all talk like the OP here: nothing but Bible quotes as though it’s an authority on anything other than itself.  If these people weren’t so nice I would go crazy listening to them, but since they’re genuinely kind and gentle folk, I enjoy my time with them.  My task is simply to let them know atheists are just as nice as (or nicer than) Christians.  I have no expectations of converting any of them, but I do hope that one or two of them will at least consider the foundation of their beliefs.

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It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money as long as you have got it.  Edmund Way Teale, Circle of the Seasons

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Posted: 13 May 2017 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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3point14rat - 12 May 2017 02:42 PM

Like most here, I find the use of the Bible as a source of information on anything other than other words in the Bible, to be annoying and useless. 

I’m attending a Bible study with some friends (the topic is the Lee Strobel book, Case for Christ) and we’ve had only one session so far and we’ll have one every other week for six sessions.  I tried to read the book it’s based on, but it’s just fake questions to Bible ‘scholars’. 

I really enjoy the time spent with the Bible study group because they’re all so nice.  Lots of smart people, a surprising number of whom have studied ancient languages in order to read the Bible in it’s original tongue, and a few who have attended theological schools and are or have been leaders in church.

They all talk like the OP here: nothing but Bible quotes as though it’s an authority on anything other than itself.  If these people weren’t so nice I would go crazy listening to them, but since they’re genuinely kind and gentle folk, I enjoy my time with them.  My task is simply to let them know atheists are just as nice as (or nicer than) Christians.  I have no expectations of converting any of them, but I do hope that one or two of them will at least consider the foundation of their beliefs.

As long as they keep their religion to themselves, that’s perfectly ok. THAT’s something great about the US. One thing you can try, just to gently nudge them, is to refer to their god as She, Her. So much is tied psychologically to their god being basically Santa Claus in the sky, that when you stir things up and use She, Her it gets them to think about. And of course if they say But god is male, then proceed to ask in what way. Surely they don’t mean he has a “thing”, i.e. he’s not biological creature with genitalia. And when they say, Oh no of course not. Then ask if they mean his gender is a mental state. And if they say no, then what the heck do they mean? And if they say yes, then you can say, ok then if gender is a mental state, you believe it’s ok to be LGBTQ since part of that idea is that gender is flexible and partly determined by one’s mental state.

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Posted: 16 May 2017 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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CuthbertJ - 13 May 2017 09:10 AM
3point14rat - 12 May 2017 02:42 PM

Like most here, I find the use of the Bible as a source of information on anything other than other words in the Bible, to be annoying and useless. 

I’m attending a Bible study with some friends (the topic is the Lee Strobel book, Case for Christ) and we’ve had only one session so far and we’ll have one every other week for six sessions.  I tried to read the book it’s based on, but it’s just fake questions to Bible ‘scholars’. 

I really enjoy the time spent with the Bible study group because they’re all so nice.  Lots of smart people, a surprising number of whom have studied ancient languages in order to read the Bible in it’s original tongue, and a few who have attended theological schools and are or have been leaders in church.

They all talk like the OP here: nothing but Bible quotes as though it’s an authority on anything other than itself.  If these people weren’t so nice I would go crazy listening to them, but since they’re genuinely kind and gentle folk, I enjoy my time with them.  My task is simply to let them know atheists are just as nice as (or nicer than) Christians.  I have no expectations of converting any of them, but I do hope that one or two of them will at least consider the foundation of their beliefs.

As long as they keep their religion to themselves, that’s perfectly ok. THAT’s something great about the US. One thing you can try, just to gently nudge them, is to refer to their god as She, Her. So much is tied psychologically to their god being basically Santa Claus in the sky, that when you stir things up and use She, Her it gets them to think about. And of course if they say But god is male, then proceed to ask in what way. Surely they don’t mean he has a “thing”, i.e. he’s not biological creature with genitalia. And when they say, Oh no of course not. Then ask if they mean his gender is a mental state. And if they say no, then what the heck do they mean? And if they say yes, then you can say, ok then if gender is a mental state, you believe it’s ok to be LGBTQ since part of that idea is that gender is flexible and partly determined by one’s mental state.

I try to slip in the odd phrase or word that forces them out of the autopilot mental state that is beat into their heads at every point in their religious life.  Referring to their god as a she is a bit too obvious for me though.  I like my ‘accidents’ to be more subtle, but if they wander into the gender topic I think I will use your idea, thank you.

The point of the Bible study is to learn of all the proof of Christ’s existence and the video they watch is identical to the many others you can find on Youtube.  It’s very painful to sit through an hour of rotten-to-the-core arguments, knowing the lies are just reinforcing the mental wall I am there to tear down.  Believers are told how to respond to questions, so they merely have to recall the standard prepackaged response.  Making them think on their own after the video is a tough job, so dropping little word bombs into the conversation, making them think about the words I use, will hopefully make them think of theirs.

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It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money as long as you have got it.  Edmund Way Teale, Circle of the Seasons

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