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Is Murder Wrong If There Is No God?
Posted: 22 July 2017 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Lausten - 22 July 2017 07:01 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 05:56 PM
Adamski - 22 July 2017 12:54 AM

Nihilo so slavery was moral in the past as condoned by your “God” in the Bible but not now??

What?

If the maker decides what is good, how do we judge if the maker is good?

What?  Who cares?  There’s no “wrong” if there’s no Maker, thus the answer to the question, “Is Murder Wrong If There Is No God?” which is the title of the thread, is, “No.”

Even if we could prove definitively that the Maker both exists nonfictionally, and is “wrong[/evil],” what on earth could we do about it?  We would remain at the mercy of the Maker, regardless, and for my money, I’d be more inclined to determining my best course of action, taking into very careful consideration to whether the Maker has instructed me in any particular way, as I make my determination about what is my best course of action, and just what I would do.

As a Christian, I am instructed to do one essential thing, and it is that I ought to “confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus,” and to, “believe in [my] heart that God hath raised him from the dead,” as Romans chapter 10 verse nine says.  So my choice is whether or not to believe the RESURRECTION.  And it’s an easy choice.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Nihilo said,
What?  Who cares?  There’s no “wrong” if there’s no Maker, thus the answer to the question, “Is Murder Wrong If There Is No God?” which is the title of the thread, is, “No.”
...................
As a Christian, I am instructed to do one essential thing, and it is that I ought to “confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus,” and to, “believe in [my] heart that God hath raised him from the dead,” as Romans chapter 10 verse nine says.  So my choice is whether or not to believe the RESURRECTION.  And it’s an easy choice.

But what has that to do with the question if Murder is wrong if there is no God?

Explain the importance of the RESURRECTION to me and how that affects the MORAL concept of MURDER?

Do you think that if you are murdered, you will be resurrected, if only you believe hard enough?

Afterthought,  if there was no God then Jesus would not be the son of God and his murder would not be wrong?
This is getting very confused. Seems, you want it both ways.

[ Edited: 22 July 2017 07:58 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 July 2017 08:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Write4U - 22 July 2017 07:50 PM

Nihilo said,
What?  Who cares?  There’s no “wrong” if there’s no Maker, thus the answer to the question, “Is Murder Wrong If There Is No God?” which is the title of the thread, is, “No.”
...................
As a Christian, I am instructed to do one essential thing, and it is that I ought to “confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus,” and to, “believe in [my] heart that God hath raised him from the dead,” as Romans chapter 10 verse nine says.  So my choice is whether or not to believe the RESURRECTION.  And it’s an easy choice.

But what has that to do with the question if Murder is wrong if there is no God?

As a Christian, everything.  If the RESURRECTION of Jesus is fiction, then the whole thing is a sham; it’s not a question of throwing out babies and bathwater; all of our moral roots are in Christian soil, so if the “central” and “crowning” truth of the Christian faith is fiction, then it positively rules out morality as anything other than another fiction; a fiction because it’s based on a fiction.  Morality can’t be supported by anything else than the RESURRECTION.  I can say this because I’m a Christian, and I realize that if you’re not a Christian, then you can’t, but I can’t apologize for, that being a Christian provides a philosophical bulwark upon which I can lean, and forever.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 08:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Write4U - 22 July 2017 07:50 PM

Explain the importance of the RESURRECTION to me and how that affects the MORAL concept of MURDER?

If the RESURRECTION is nonfiction, then that means an awful lot.  Among which, is that we should listen to anything that He can be confirmed to have taught, regarding moral matters, such as murder.  And it turns out, that He entrusted the administration of a brand new earthly organization that we today call the Catholic Church, to Twelve Apostles, Paul (Saul of Tarsus) being the Twelfth.  And this organization teaches on matters of both faith and morals, which roughly divides between what we ought to think, and what we ought to do, but there is wide overlap, for instance, we ought to do this or that because we think this or that, or to remind us that we think this or that, or some other conceptual or logical connection between the two.  This organization teaches that murder is a grave sin, an example of grave matter, and that murder forfeits any future salvation the murderer might have otherwise enjoyed; it is among the most serious sins, IOW.  Beyond this, the Catholic Church teaches that murder automatically renders a Catholic excommunicated, and furthermore, Catholics are also formally excommunicated when they are known to have committed murder.  So if the RESURRECTION is nonfiction, then murder is wrong; and if it is fiction, then murder can’t be wrong.

Write4U - 22 July 2017 07:50 PM

Do you think that if you are murdered, you will be resurrected, if only you believe hard enough?

We will all rise from the dead.  Some will enter the kingdom of God, and some will not.

Write4U - 22 July 2017 07:50 PM

Afterthought,  if there was no God then Jesus would not be the son of God and his murder would not be wrong?

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.  That other stuff doesn’t matter.  It’s ancillary.

Write4U - 22 July 2017 07:50 PM

This is getting very confused. Seems, you want it both ways.

I don’t want it both ways, I want it one way, but it has to be a cogent, reasonable, realistic, stable, and reliable way.  Believing that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, meets my specifications.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Write4U said,
Explain the importance of the RESURRECTION to me

Afterthought,  if there was no God then Jesus would not be the son of God and his murder would not be wrong?

Nihilo said,
If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.  That other stuff doesn’t matter.  It’s ancillary.

Write4U,
This is getting very confused. Seems, you want it both ways.

Nihilo said,
I don’t want it both ways, I want it one way, but it has to be a cogent, reasonable, realistic, stable, and reliable way.  Believing that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, meets my specifications.

Sorry to say, your specifications don’t meet mine. I prefer Critical thinking over Wishful thinking.
But if it makes you happy, I am the last person to murder your Illusion. It’s not nice.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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But in the interest of Critical analysis of the history of the Catholic Religion, I believe this may be informative,

The 1578 edition of the Directorium Inquisitorum (a standard Inquisitorial manual) spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties*: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur (translation: “... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit”).

* this included “torture”, “burning at the stake”, “drowning” (to prove someone was “innocent” rather than “guilty”), and just plain old good Murder, all sanctioned (proscribed by Holy Law of God), by the Church.

Sounds more like a terrorist handbook, don’t you agree?

[ Edited: 22 July 2017 09:41 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 July 2017 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Write4U - 22 July 2017 09:26 PM

But in the interest of Critical analysis of the history of the Catholic Religion, I believe this may be informative,

The 1578 edition of the Directorium Inquisitorum (a standard Inquisitorial manual) spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties*: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur (translation: “... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit”).

* this included “torture”, “burning at the stake”, “drowning” (to prove someone was “innocent” rather than “guilty”), and just plain old good Murder, all sanctioned (proscribed by Holy Law of God), by the Church.

Sounds more like a terrorist handbook, don’t you agree?

There are some terrifically horrific crimes that people have done, and censored, they deserve to be tortured.  If you disagree, then I disagree over-the-top-all-in, because sometimes people have done some terrible, terrible things.  It’s not right to not torture these most awful of capital criminals.

Instead, we should acknowledge this campaign of mercy, that the West is waging right now, in providing such leniency as the public working (taxes) for the capital criminal’s continuing existence, meaning not only are we not torturing and killing them, we’re working to ensure that they continue to live, even while we keep them confined with hostility.  We pay for that, too.  The mercy we’re showing them is crazy.

I think that the Church’s influence has infected our civil government with this mission of mercy.  As you’ve shown, obviously the Church has some experience with torture, and for her part, she would prefer that we outlaw torture, even for the worst capital criminals, no matter the magnitude of their harm against no matter how many other people.

If I weren’t against this, like, if I weren’t a supporter of the separation between religion (including the Christian Church) and civil government, then I would just not mention about how deep this thorn’s in our culture, a massive pricker right in our civil flesh.  We’ve been duped into believing there’s something wrong with torturing horrible people.  That’s not true at all!  It’s also not wrong to show people mercy, no matter how grave the crimes that people may commit.  So let’s at least acknowledge that it’s what we’re collectively doing.  We are performing a massive experiment, to see if we can vanquish capital crime forever from our species, and we’re doing it by not torturing anybody for any crime, no matter how horrible or terrible or perverse.  When we do kill for a criminal penalty, we study how to kill most painlessly and most quickly, making the coup de grace the only option now-a-days, instead of in olden days, when we’d only deliver the coup de grace when the horrible capital criminal repented of their crime during torture.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Their justly administered torture.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 10:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Nihilo - 22 July 2017 08:47 PM

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.

“Thou shalt not kill” is rumored to have been written in stone long before the JC story even began. Intentional homicide was punishable by death in Athens hundreds of years before JC was rumored to exist.
Looks like JC and resurrection are getting way off thread besides being quite inaccurate.

[ Edited: 22 July 2017 10:54 PM by JohnH ]
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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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JohnH - 22 July 2017 10:51 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 08:47 PM

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.

“Thou shalt not kill” is rumored to have been written in stone long before the JC story even began. Intentional homicide was punishable by death in Athens hundreds of years before JC was rumored to exist.
Looks like JC and resurrection are getting way off thread besides being quite inaccurate.

So what if people pretend that fiction is nonfiction, and then behave irrationally as a result?  What have you proved?  Certainly not, that murder is wrong, even if the RESURRECTION is fiction.  Nope.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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JohnH - 22 July 2017 10:51 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 08:47 PM

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.

“Thou shalt not kill” is rumored to have been written in stone long before the JC story even began. Intentional homicide was punishable by death in Athens hundreds of years before JC was rumored to exist.
Looks like JC and resurrection are getting way off thread besides being quite inaccurate.

Yes and religious murder was also committed after JC was rumored to exist.

Read Hypatia’s story;

http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm

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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Write4U - 22 July 2017 11:28 PM
JohnH - 22 July 2017 10:51 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 08:47 PM

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.

“Thou shalt not kill” is rumored to have been written in stone long before the JC story even began. Intentional homicide was punishable by death in Athens hundreds of years before JC was rumored to exist.
Looks like JC and resurrection are getting way off thread besides being quite inaccurate.

Yes and religious murder was also committed after JC was rumored to exist.

Read Hypatia’s story;

http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm

So what?

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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Nihilo - 22 July 2017 10:23 PM

Their justly administered torture.

Now that is clearly a statement of ignorance of the true history of Abrahamic religions.

Tell me what is justly about this practice.

If a woman was accused of practicing witchcraft they would sow her into a sack and throw her in the river. If she came back to the surface it was a sign of witchcraft and she would be burned at the stake.
OTOH, if she drowned, it was a sign that she was innocent.  But dead.  In my book that amounts to Murder Most Foul!

If you want to believe in resurrection , that’s ok with me. After you or I die we shall never meet again. But don’t give me any BS about the IMMORAL PRACTICES of the church and its Minions.

To thine own self be true !  Bearing false witness is a mortal sin!  Ignorance is no excuse for blathering falsehoods without any knowledge of History.

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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Nihilo - 22 July 2017 11:38 PM
Write4U - 22 July 2017 11:28 PM
JohnH - 22 July 2017 10:51 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 08:47 PM

If the RESURRECTION is fiction, then murder is not wrong.

“Thou shalt not kill” is rumored to have been written in stone long before the JC story even began. Intentional homicide was punishable by death in Athens hundreds of years before JC was rumored to exist.
Looks like JC and resurrection are getting way off thread besides being quite inaccurate.

Yes and religious murder was also committed after JC was rumored to exist.

Read Hypatia’s story;

http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm

So what?

You’re going to Hell, that’s what.

Here is the truth,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

[ Edited: 22 July 2017 11:45 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 July 2017 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Write4U - 22 July 2017 11:40 PM
Nihilo - 22 July 2017 10:23 PM

Their justly administered torture.

Now that is clearly a statement of ignorance of the true history of Abrahamic religions.

Tell me what is justly about this practice.

If a woman was accused of practicing witchcraft they would sow her into a sack and throw her in the river. If she came back to the surface it was a sign of witchcraft and she would be burned at the stake.
OTOH, if she drowned, it was a sign that she was innocent.  But dead.  In my book that amounts to Murder Most Foul!

If you want to believe in resurrection , that’s ok with me. After you or I die we shall never meet again. But don’t give me any BS about the IMMORAL PRACTICES of the church and its Minions.

To thine own self be true !  Bearing false witness is a mortal sin!  Ignorance is no excuse for blathering falsehoods without any knowledge of History.

I’m talking about a hypothetical person, who’s convicted in a fair trial by jury, of raping and murdering babies.  They deserve to be tortured.  If you disagree with that, then you are censored.

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