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Is Murder Wrong If There Is No God?
Posted: 25 July 2017 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:58 PM
Lausten - 24 July 2017 07:36 PM

Probably about as awesome as being told you are going to burn in hell for eternity.

Burned me there.

An even bigger clown than i thought. You are happy to reject redemption and burn in hell ( a place peace loving mild and meek sweet baby jesus invented). Ha ha ha

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Posted: 25 July 2017 03:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:59 PM

‘Course, when did I say you’re going to burn for eternity?

You said you were Catholic

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Posted: 25 July 2017 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Nihilo - 24 July 2017 08:47 AM
Advocatus - 24 July 2017 07:08 AM

Okay, we’re on the same page as far as society’s consensus on what morality means.  To me, “moral relativism” means something a little different.  If, for example, a group of people in the next town decided that slavery was okay and that murder was okay, then we would be have no cause to say that they were wrong.  Their consensus is just their consensus, just as morally right as ours is.  In other words, morality is relative.  But that’s not true. Once we decide upon a consensus, it becomes the standard by which we judge all such cultures, not just our own.

And that’s what I meant by moral relativism, because it’s based upon public opinion and not upon some objective standard.  For millennia, slavery wasn’t considered immoral at all, and now it is.

I’m not sure which part you’re agreeing with.  Morality isn’t just “public opinion”, because God knows (if you’ll pardon the expression) that can change back and forth with the wind.  It’s the consensus of society we’re talking about.  As you said, for thousands of years slavery was considered perfectly moral.  The Catholic Church even said that it was moral. Then the Catholic Church changed its mind along with the rest of society.  You said that the Catholic Church was what you considered your moral authority, but isn’t that just the consensus arrived at by the fathers of the Church?

“Moral Relativism” means that all moral judgments are the same.  You can’t say which is “right” or “wrong”.  This is obviously not true, because in practice we DO make such judgments.  A more neutral example might be homosexual marriage.  When the federal law passed giving homosexuals the right to marry, for “liberals” it became the new moral consensus.  If some future administration tries to rescind that law, we would see it as a step backward.  On the other hand, for “conservatives” the opposite is true.  They see the law as a step backward, and rescinding it would be restoring the correct moral consensus.  Both sides think they are right.  Neither is willing to shrug their shoulders and say, “Oh well.  Morals are relative, after all.”

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Posted: 25 July 2017 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Lausten - 25 July 2017 03:47 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:59 PM

‘Course, when did I say you’re going to burn for eternity?

You said you were Catholic

‘Did not.

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Posted: 25 July 2017 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Write4U - 25 July 2017 12:19 AM

I believe I have found the answer to your original question about the nihilist implication.

Resurrection is the concept of coming back to life after death. In a number of ancient religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and resurrects. The death and resurrection of Jesus, an example of resurrection, is the central focus of Christianity.

As a religious concept, it is used in two distinct respects: a belief in the resurrection of individual souls that is current and ongoing (Christian idealism, realized eschatology), or else a belief in a singular resurrection of the dead at the end of the world. The resurrection of the dead is a standard eschatological belief in the Abrahamic religions.

The Rapture?

I don’t get whatever it is you’re trying to say.

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Posted: 25 July 2017 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Adamski - 25 July 2017 02:36 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:58 PM
Lausten - 24 July 2017 07:36 PM

Probably about as awesome as being told you are going to burn in hell for eternity.

Burned me there.

An even bigger clown than i thought. You are happy to reject redemption and burn in hell ( a place peace loving mild and meek sweet baby jesus invented). Ha ha ha

Burned me there.

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Christian

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Posted: 25 July 2017 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Advocatus - 25 July 2017 06:57 AM

I’m not sure which part you’re agreeing with.  Morality isn’t just “public opinion”, because God knows (if you’ll pardon the expression) that can change back and forth with the wind.  It’s the consensus of society we’re talking about.  As you said, for thousands of years slavery was considered perfectly moral.  The Catholic Church even said that it was moral. Then the Catholic Church changed its mind along with the rest of society.  You said that the Catholic Church was what you considered your moral authority, but isn’t that just the consensus arrived at by the fathers of the Church?

“Moral Relativism” means that all moral judgments are the same.  You can’t say which is “right” or “wrong”.  This is obviously not true, because in practice we DO make such judgments.  A more neutral example might be homosexual marriage.  When the federal law passed giving homosexuals the right to marry, for “liberals” it became the new moral consensus.  If some future administration tries to rescind that law, we would see it as a step backward.  On the other hand, for “conservatives” the opposite is true.  They see the law as a step backward, and rescinding it would be restoring the correct moral consensus.  Both sides think they are right.  Neither is willing to shrug their shoulders and say, “Oh well.  Morals are relative, after all.”

So you’re just saying that what’s legal is moral, and what’s illegal is immoral then, right?

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Posted: 25 July 2017 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:28 AM
Lausten - 25 July 2017 03:47 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:59 PM

‘Course, when did I say you’re going to burn for eternity?

You said you were Catholic

‘Did not.

I’m not going to go searching for posts where you said things and argue semantics. You’ve been defending the Catholic dogma for a week now. Maybe you didn’t specifically say “I am Catholic” but you said something about following or accepting the Catholic leadership did you not? Instead of being obstinate and obtuse, how about stating yourself clearly.

[ Edited: 25 July 2017 09:41 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 25 July 2017 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:33 AM

So you’re just saying that what’s legal is moral, and what’s illegal is immoral then, right?

I’m sure Advotacus can answer for himself, but no, that’s not what he said. “Legal” is defined within boundaries and changes over time. There were some pretty immoral things that were legal in Europe in recent centuries, and we’ve already mentioned slavery was legal. Not to mention it is currently legal to execute people for being gay in some countries. The current system of nations keeps the world from descending into chaos, but forces us into accepting these atrocities to a certain extent.

“Moral” assumes a more universal standard. The fact that we can’t all agree on what is or isn’t moral doesn’t mean such standards don’t exist or aren’t obtainable. “Legal” requires a structure for enforcement. It should be based on universal standards, but often it is not. “Moral” requires some sort of standard that can be described. How you enforce it is secondary to judging it. My preference is logic, which includes our emotions as well as the needs of the planet and future generations.

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Posted: 25 July 2017 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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Lausten - 25 July 2017 09:32 AM
Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:28 AM
Lausten - 25 July 2017 03:47 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:59 PM

‘Course, when did I say you’re going to burn for eternity?

You said you were Catholic

‘Did not.

I’m not going to go searching for posts where you said things and argue semantics. You’ve been defending the Catholic dogma for a week now. Maybe you didn’t specifically say “I am Catholic” but you said something about following or accepting the Catholic leadership did you not? Instead of being obstinate and obtuse, how about stating yourself clearly.

I already did.  I’m not Catholic.  Period.

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Posted: 25 July 2017 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Nihilo - 25 July 2017 10:16 AM
Lausten - 25 July 2017 09:32 AM
Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:28 AM
Lausten - 25 July 2017 03:47 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:59 PM

‘Course, when did I say you’re going to burn for eternity?

You said you were Catholic

‘Did not.

I’m not going to go searching for posts where you said things and argue semantics. You’ve been defending the Catholic dogma for a week now. Maybe you didn’t specifically say “I am Catholic” but you said something about following or accepting the Catholic leadership did you not? Instead of being obstinate and obtuse, how about stating yourself clearly.

I already did.  I’m not Catholic.  Period.

So what were you trying to tell us in this post?
Or here

[ Edited: 25 July 2017 01:17 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 25 July 2017 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:31 AM
Adamski - 25 July 2017 02:36 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:58 PM
Lausten - 24 July 2017 07:36 PM

Probably about as awesome as being told you are going to burn in hell for eternity.

Burned me there.

An even bigger clown than i thought. You are happy to reject redemption and burn in hell ( a place peace loving mild and meek sweet baby jesus invented). Ha ha ha

Burned me there.

Just like those witches nihilo.

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Posted: 26 July 2017 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:33 AM

So you’re just saying that what’s legal is moral, and what’s illegal is immoral then, right?

No, no, that’s the opposite of what I’m saying.  Lausten sums up what I mean very nicely.  Legal and moral are two different things.  We try as hard as we can to make our legal system reflect our moral values, but often it falls short because this isn’t a perfect world, and because there are differing factions in society (“liberals” and “conservatives”) who sometimes disagree on what morality is.

I believe that there are certain core values that we all share as human beings.  We all feel uneasy about stealing, for example, if only because we don’t like it when people steal from us.  At the same time, our moral stance can change due to our life experiences.  Jean Valjean knew that stealing was wrong, but he also knew that he was literally starving to death, and that the baker was not going to go bankrupt over a single loaf of bread.

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Posted: 27 July 2017 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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Adamski - 25 July 2017 02:15 PM
Nihilo - 25 July 2017 08:31 AM
Adamski - 25 July 2017 02:36 AM
Nihilo - 24 July 2017 07:58 PM
Lausten - 24 July 2017 07:36 PM

Probably about as awesome as being told you are going to burn in hell for eternity.

Burned me there.

An even bigger clown than i thought. You are happy to reject redemption and burn in hell ( a place peace loving mild and meek sweet baby jesus invented). Ha ha ha

Burned me there.

Just like those witches nihilo.

looks like we got rid of Nihilo. Bye!

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