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Goldwater Institute wants to legitimize hate speech.
Posted: 18 May 2017 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Lausten - 17 May 2017 04:42 AM
Beltane - 16 May 2017 07:16 PM

Citizenschallengev3 and Lausten - both of you put down your bongs and try to understand this very simple thing: there is a such thing as hate speech in America, I can’t link to the definition but it’s easy to find.

Nothing Coulter says legally qualifies as hate speech. Her sarcastic insults and scientifically wrong ideas about global warming won’t make it to the courtroom. They’ll just piss off the over-sensitive - who wish she’d get arrested for wrongthink.

If you want to set the bar at the legal definition, fine by me.  I can still didmiss her and call her hateful.

And you should if that’s your impression. This is why American free speech laws are so good, we can express controversial, offensive ideas and material without being silenced.

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Posted: 18 May 2017 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 17 May 2017 07:20 AM

Interesting the best you can come up with is a diversionary comic routine.  Intellectually bankrupt is as bankrupt does.

The gratuitous nasty diversion when you can’t handle the question.

Beltane - 16 May 2017 07:16 PM

Citizenschallengev3 and Lausten - both of you put down your bongs and ...

Might I be allowed to suggest that, you extract your head out of Rupert Murdoch’s asshole and start looking at the real world out here.
Okay, we’re even now.  Shall we refocus and see if Beltane is capable of a thoughtful response?

What is it about deliberately using fabricated lies to slandering and libel professionals that you don’t like - that isn’t hateful?

What is it about vicious and malicious that isn’t hateful?

I don’t know if your career consists of punching holes at an assembly line so that nothing else really matters,
but lets imagine you spent your life in diligent study and effort and you put together a respected professional career of significance, such Drs. Santer, Mann, Trenberth, etc.

Imagine yourself studying and discovering matters of the most serious existential important to our society.
If then some profits obsessed poddy-brains who hate intellectuals and hate the information you are discovering about specific aspects of how our natural system is reacting to what we are doing to it
- matters that are of extreme importance considering how much our society depends on our weather patterns for its sustenance -
if then malicious interests started fabricating total lies focused on destroying your hard earned excellent reputation and trashing your work based on ignoring and fabricating total bull-shit intend to do maximum harm your well-earned good reputation.  I wonder how you would feel?
I imagine you’d have a different perspective on hate-speech.

My perspective would remain the same.

I don’t cry when I’m insulted or when people disagree with me and I definitely don’t want them silenced. People who do want that don’t belong in the (American) public sphere because they ruin it for everyone else. And that includes scientists who make a point of being celebrities - they deserve no special treatment.

As for Coulter and climate change denialism, it’s not something she is constantly focused on, she’s a s**t-stirrer on mostly political issues. Her comments haven’t ruined scientists’ careers or shifted the public opinion on climate change. She’s a small fish in a big pond regarding all of that.

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Posted: 18 May 2017 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 17 May 2017 09:21 PM

Further considerations

Beltane - 16 May 2017 07:16 PM

Nothing Coulter says legally qualifies as hate speech. Her sarcastic insults and scientifically wrong ideas about global warming won’t make it to the courtroom. They’ll just piss off the over-sensitive - who wish she’d get arrested for wrongthink.

Notice a complete disregard for the target, the human being at the receiving end.
it’s all good fun a’la Morano - trashing people’s good reputations, fuk ‘em if they can’t take a little heat, the over-sensitive infidels, I’ve got my mission to win, says the wiseguy.

What is it about deliberately using fabricated lies to slandering and libel professionals that you don’t like - that isn’t hateful?
What is it about vicious and malicious that isn’t hateful?

I am a child of the Intellectual Enlightenment, I believe in experiencing my life, observing and learning about the incredibly amazing (and worth understanding to the best of one’s ability) Creation surrounding us.

I also love community and being an engaged member of one, it’s cool cooperating with people based on recognizing our mutual humanity, not our dogmas.
I believe in respecting those who have earned respect. 
I believe in learning from the efforts of others who have toiled long and hard during their lives to add their little bit of learning to this ongoing centuries old humanistic project of communal understanding that Science and the Enlightenment is.

I believe in the basic honesty of people, especially when others are invited and expected to look over each others shoulders - as is the scientific way.  360° skepticism, genuine desire to learn and better understand, ...  a mob of artfully manipulated people is a whole other story.  (We need each other to keep ourselves honest!)

The Goldwater Institute, Beltane, Limbaugh seem to hate that sort of constructive fact based learning process, nope instead they have an agenda, a dogma with enemies to annihilate and a desire to win at all costs, the very definition of amoral. 

In earlier days the first global corporation had the power to deal with contrary personalities by invoking the Inquisition - apply a little pressure where it hurts, the old art of persuasion.  Can’t get away with that these days.  Now, it’s character assassination, derision and derailing every effort at serious, fact-based, constructive learning and trouble-shooting and decision making.  Nope, instead the alt-right heroes are slippery tongued serpents who demolish reputations with slick funny, wrongthink. But don’t call it hate-speech for all it’s hateful nature and intent

You personally can call it hate speech as much as you want, but it’s not going to be prohibited for your benefit.

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Posted: 18 May 2017 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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As he smugly ignores the issue.

I know damned well I’m going to change nothing.
It still doesn’t change anything about the viciousness and infantile thinking embedded within the Evangelical Christian and TeaParty and alt-right crowds - and the free license they give themselves to attack others with pure fabricated bull shit.

If the only way you can deal with critically important issues is ridicule, character assassination, fabrication of lies - it’s a recipe for disaster, as we are watching unfold in our once great nation of immigrants, who incidentally blasted the hell out it’s first citizens, but hey, don’t call it hatred.

From what you’ve written Beltane it’s pretty plain your position is rather intellectually bankrupt -
but I know I know I know The Golden Rule, he with the gold makes the rules.
Still don’t mean it isn’t a recipe for degeneration and disaster.

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Posted: 18 May 2017 11:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 May 2017 07:05 AM

As he smugly ignores the issue.

I know damned well I’m going to change nothing.
It still doesn’t change anything about the viciousness and infantile thinking embedded within the Evangelical Christian and TeaParty and alt-right crowds - and the free license they give themselves to attack others with pure fabricated bull shit.

If the only way you can deal with critically important issues is ridicule, character assassination, fabrication of lies - it’s a recipe for disaster, as we are watching unfold in our once great nation of immigrants, who incidentally blasted the hell out it’s first citizens, but hey, don’t call it hatred.

From what you’ve written Beltane it’s pretty plain your position is rather intellectually bankrupt -
but I know I know I know The Golden Rule, he with the gold makes the rules.
Still don’t mean it isn’t a recipe for degeneration and disaster.

The issue here is labeling speech one don’t like as hate speech, not this environmental obsession you seem to have.

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Posted: 18 May 2017 11:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 May 2017 07:05 AM

From what you’ve written Beltane it’s pretty plain your position is rather intellectually bankrupt -
but I know I know I know The Golden Rule, he with the gold makes the rules.
Still don’t mean it isn’t a recipe for degeneration and disaster.

What a cringeworthy comment.

Ridicule and insults are going to cause “degeneration and disaster”?

Lel.

Maybe for you, not for most people.

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Posted: 19 May 2017 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Beltane - 18 May 2017 11:48 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 May 2017 07:05 AM

As he smugly ignores the issue.

I know damned well I’m going to change nothing.
It still doesn’t change anything about the viciousness and infantile thinking embedded within the Evangelical Christian and TeaParty and alt-right crowds - and the free license they give themselves to attack others with pure fabricated bull shit.

If the only way you can deal with critically important issues is ridicule, character assassination, fabrication of lies - it’s a recipe for disaster, as we are watching unfold in our once great nation of immigrants, who incidentally blasted the hell out it’s first citizens, but hey, don’t call it hatred.

From what you’ve written Beltane it’s pretty plain your position is rather intellectually bankrupt -
but I know I know I know The Golden Rule, he with the gold makes the rules.
Still don’t mean it isn’t a recipe for degeneration and disaster.

The issue here is labeling speech one don’t like as hate speech, not this environmental obsession you seem to have.

The issue is this discussion. You have expressed an opinion and you can’t back it up. You very quickly backed down from saying Coulter’s speech is not hateful to using a the very high bar of the legal definition. For good reason, it is very difficult to prosecute someone for speech. Even if they are going on television, with a known large audience and showing pictures of targets painted on specific people and those people later get shot.

This is an informal discussion forum, not a court of law. You’ve admitted that Coulter is a nasty person, but you still want to defend her. That makes you culpable for whatever consequences come of her actions. Freedom of speech includes my right to say Coulter’s speech is hateful and fits the definition according to any reasonable person. That doesn’t mean I can make a citizen’s arrest and haul her in. That was never the argument here, but it’s the corner where you are now standing.

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Posted: 19 May 2017 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Beltane - 18 May 2017 11:48 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 May 2017 07:05 AM

As he smugly ignores the issue.

I know damned well I’m going to change nothing.
It still doesn’t change anything about the viciousness and infantile thinking embedded within the Evangelical Christian and TeaParty and alt-right crowds - and the free license they give themselves to attack others with pure fabricated bull shit.

If the only way you can deal with critically important issues is ridicule, character assassination, fabrication of lies - it’s a recipe for disaster, as we are watching unfold in our once great nation of immigrants, who incidentally blasted the hell out it’s first citizens, but hey, don’t call it hatred.

From what you’ve written Beltane it’s pretty plain your position is rather intellectually bankrupt -
but I know I know I know The Golden Rule, he with the gold makes the rules.
Still don’t mean it isn’t a recipe for degeneration and disaster.

The issue here is labeling speech one don’t like as hate speech, not this environmental obsession you seem to have.

Beltane - 18 May 2017 11:54 PM

Ridicule and insults are going to cause “degeneration and disaster”?

No you keep ignoring that the issue is

The fact that this is about the intent to deliberately maliciously destroy targeted experts professional standing
based on a repetition of pure lies.

That is hate speech!
Anne Coulter and that whole crowd practice creative hatred as a strategic tactic.

Unfortunately Beltane, yes lying about real down to Earth facts and dismissing fact-based objections and warning with ridicule and flippant disregard leads to hideous disasters all the time.
Take the right-wing propaganda campaign of lies that sold Shock’nAwe to the American people as an example of the irreversible and compounding catastrophe ignoring the truth can be.

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Posted: 19 May 2017 10:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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{Beltane}  The issue here is labeling speech one don’t like as hate speech, not this environmental obsession you seem to have.

NO!  Stop trying to make this about me!
                    Another favorite yet sleazy debate/discussion tactic.
My concern about Earth awareness and our planet’s health has nothing to do with it!
We are trying to discuss the question of the hatefulness of character assassination.
It’s harmfulness to society when lies and juvenile ridicule of real expert becomes the accepted way to deal with complicated issues and unwanted critique or warnings.
Think Shock’n Awe for a reminder, than again you might be among those think we won that one.  Who knows?  Care to share?

Your sentence “environmental obsession” and that attitude is a wonderful example of what I’m talking about.

You come across as though you think our “environment” is a joke,
like you believe that anyone concerned with our planet’s environment and/or its climate regime has got to be a pot smoking stooge.

It seems as though you have no conception of the importance of a healthy environment to a thriving global community.
It seems as though you have no conception of the increasing tempo of seriously destructive weather systems along with alarming polar ice destabilization.
It seems as though you know nothing of the cascading consequences people are experiencing already
and even less about the increasing trajectory of Earth’s climate and biosphere transition into something harsh and unrecognizable.

Basic reality of compounding cumulative interest within Earth’s life sustaining environmental systems (biosphere),
Beltane bet you’ve never given it a second thought.

As though none of that will ever touch your smug existence.

And all this because you were deftly brainwashed by the lies of people with absolutely no scruples or ethics, beyond immediate self-interest.
You have been on that diet of lies and oh so humorous ridicule and seem to think it’s just fine, so long as you feel like you’re winning.
Enjoy the feeling while you can.  It won’t last.

To be clear Beltane, Anne Coulter is a malicious hate-monger, the body of her work stands for itself, the fact that you think it humor and good fun,
simply implies you’re okay with hate speech, slander, and such. 
But your approval doesn’t make it okay or healthy or intelligent or constructive.

[ Edited: 19 May 2017 10:56 PM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 20 May 2017 05:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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First Beltane questioned that we could judge Coulter’s future action, then her being labeled as hateful by saying she is just lying, then asked for evidence although he knows exactly what we are talking about, then he says that denial of science is not a problem. Seems to be implying scientists just need to suck it up or something. He has no idea he is the cause of the downfall of civilization. He seems to think that civilization exists on its own and people within it can act uncivilized with no consequences. Having no idea it is the other way around.

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Posted: 20 May 2017 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Lausten - 19 May 2017 10:50 AM

You have expressed an opinion and you can’t back it up. You very quickly backed down from saying Coulter’s speech is not hateful to using a the very high bar of the legal definition.

The legal definition is the only one that matters in a society with countless ideas of hatefulness. Any other definition is too chaotic.

For good reason, it is very difficult to prosecute someone for speech. Even if they are going on television, with a known large audience and showing pictures of targets painted on specific people and those people later get shot.

No, somebody would probably be investigated for that. Its a far cry from what Coulter does, though.

This is an informal discussion forum, not a court of law. You’ve admitted that Coulter is a nasty person, but you still want to defend her. That makes you culpable for whatever consequences come of her actions.

Not legally culpable, which is all that really matters. You make her sound like a mob boss and I’m her hitman.

Freedom of speech includes my right to say Coulter’s speech is hateful and fits the definition according to any reasonable person.

Correct about your right, I posted that much upthread. Incorrect that any reasonable person agrees with your definition.

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Posted: 20 May 2017 05:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Lausten - 20 May 2017 05:08 AM

First Beltane questioned that we could judge Coulter’s future action, then her being labeled as hateful by saying she is just lying, then asked for evidence although he knows exactly what we are talking about, then he says that denial of science is not a problem. Seems to be implying scientists just need to suck it up or something. He has no idea he is the cause of the downfall of civilization. He seems to think that civilization exists on its own and people within it can act uncivilized with no consequences. Having no idea it is the other way around.

You are a dramatic person.

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Posted: 20 May 2017 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 19 May 2017 10:51 PM

{Beltane}  The issue here is labeling speech one don’t like as hate speech, not this environmental obsession you seem to have.

NO!  Stop trying to make this about me!
                    Another favorite yet sleazy debate/discussion tactic.
My concern about Earth awareness and our planet’s health has nothing to do with it!
We are trying to discuss the question of the hatefulness of character assassination.
It’s harmfulness to society when lies and juvenile ridicule of real expert becomes the accepted way to deal with complicated issues and unwanted critique or warnings.
Think Shock’n Awe for a reminder, than again you might be among those think we won that one.  Who knows?  Care to share?

Your sentence “environmental obsession” and that attitude is a wonderful example of what I’m talking about.

You come across as though you think our “environment” is a joke,
like you believe that anyone concerned with our planet’s environment and/or its climate regime has got to be a pot smoking stooge.

It seems as though you have no conception of the importance of a healthy environment to a thriving global community.
It seems as though you have no conception of the increasing tempo of seriously destructive weather systems along with alarming polar ice destabilization.
It seems as though you know nothing of the cascading consequences people are experiencing already
and even less about the increasing trajectory of Earth’s climate and biosphere transition into something harsh and unrecognizable.

Basic reality of compounding cumulative interest within Earth’s life sustaining environmental systems (biosphere),
Beltane bet you’ve never given it a second thought.

As though none of that will ever touch your smug existence.

And all this because you were deftly brainwashed by the lies of people with absolutely no scruples or ethics, beyond immediate self-interest.
You have been on that diet of lies and oh so humorous ridicule and seem to think it’s just fine, so long as you feel like you’re winning.
Enjoy the feeling while you can.  It won’t last.

This post isn’t helping your assertion that you’re not on about the environment.

To be clear Beltane, Anne Coulter is a malicious hate-monger, the body of her work stands for itself, the fact that you think it humor and good fun,
simply implies you’re okay with hate speech, slander, and such. 
But your approval doesn’t make it okay or healthy or intelligent or constructive.

I can tell it’s unhealthy for you!  tongue laugh

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Posted: 20 May 2017 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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I’m not trying to deny I’m more concerned with our planet more than most.  That’s because I have a deeper understanding of it’s processes after a life time of actively learning about it.  I see you can’t come at me with any real facts or argument, all you can do is reduce it to personalizing and emotionalize and demonizing. 
That’s rather hateful, or should I simply call it fearful, of serious dialogue - don’t you think?

I’m telling you my feeling are beside to the point when it comes to the Right-wing justifying the use of deliberate fabricated and malicious lies intended to character assassinate bona fide experts, who they doing their duties by trying to explain their findings to a public that has a right to understand the truth of what’s going on within our planet.

Attacking me for being more aware of the situation makes about as much sense as psik and his 9/11 thing, but it’s all you got.
You dare not tease out any of these (my environmental issues) strands and look at them rationally and factually
instead you are absolutely dependent on turning it into a Dump On The ‘Idiot’ ridicule and then Running Off Claiming Victory as you’ve repeatedly shown.

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Posted: 20 May 2017 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Beltane - 20 May 2017 05:21 AM
Lausten - 20 May 2017 05:08 AM

First Beltane questioned that we could judge Coulter’s future action, then her being labeled as hateful by saying she is just lying, then asked for evidence although he knows exactly what we are talking about, then he says that denial of science is not a problem. Seems to be implying scientists just need to suck it up or something. He has no idea he is the cause of the downfall of civilization. He seems to think that civilization exists on its own and people within it can act uncivilized with no consequences. Having no idea it is the other way around.

You are a dramatic person.

Case in point - dismiss, ignore, ridicule, run off believing in your own superiority.

It takes something more than a partisan lawyer’s interpretation of the “letter of the Law” to make a society function.
Playing with the law, manipulating and twisting it for your own purposes, that’s degenerate and self-destructive - as we are watching being played out in the news.

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