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Why did people start farming?
Posted: 29 May 2017 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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DougC - 29 May 2017 02:30 PM
Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 12:43 PM
DougC - 29 May 2017 11:12 AM
Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 07:28 AM

And chillingly enough that the unabomber may have had a point about modern life.

You find Ted Kacyznski chilling but think murdering most other humans is perfectly justified…. how truly bizarre.

I never said it was justified but the ideas behind it seem compelling (albeit no violence though).

http://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Unabombers-Pen-Pal/131892/#comments-anchor

In terms of that though I still think it’s the user and not the tool to blame.

You came up with some bullshit explanation of some fictional group we needed to defend ourselves from who want to “cull” most people. When it was you repeating over and over how it’s a viable policy to follow.

The user and not the tool, what does that even mean?

We’re not separate from the culture that we’re part of and we’re still a part of nature. Everything we do is part of the natural process of evolution, if you choose to see people in the most negative terms possible that’s on you not most people.

When you take a mechanistic approach to people and deal with them in terms shorn completely of human feeling it’s not surprising that you end up with extreme views.

That’s you and people like you, not most people.

Ah I remember you, the overly emotional one

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Posted: 29 May 2017 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 10:46 AM
LoisL - 29 May 2017 09:49 AM

They ran out of food. They had to do something. They discovered that growing food was better than migrating for an unreliable supply.  Survival of the fittest.

What about all the after effects

The people who started farming and built the first civilizations had no way of knowing about the after effects. They were trying to build better lives, and they succeeded. The unintended consequences came much later. We are now living in those consequences and have the benefit of hindsight to see how much agriculture has hurt our ecosphere. Agriculture has also given us many advantages, but in the long term it may do more harm than good. The originals farmers could not possibly have foreseen all the consequences of their advanced technology, so they did the best they could with the available knowledge.

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Posted: 29 May 2017 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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DougC - 29 May 2017 11:11 AM

It’s possible that agriculture began to provide alcohol not bread.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2527074/Did-BEER-create-modern-society-Ancient-man-developed-agriculture-brew-alcohol-not-bake-bread-claims-scientist.html

As for the development of agriculture being a “mistake” we somehow need to correct, it’s what we do with it that is important. Plentiful food supply has allowed the creation of complex societies and the only reason that we have the science and ability to understand such complex issues is due to the development of agriculture.

Remaining hunter-gatherers would be no guarantee of survival of the species either, in that state the human species almost went extinct about 75,000 years ago.

That’s interesting, and it led to another story, http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/beer-domesticated-man

Beer Domesticated Man
By Gloria Dawson, Dec 19, 2013
http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/beer-domesticated-man

... Today, the earliest chemical evidence of barley-based beer is at the Godin Tepe archaeological site near the Iran and Iraq border, and dates back to 3,500 B.C. But scientists believe that grain-based fermented drinks have a much longer history than that, and were used around the world. “It isn’t just wheat and barley in the Middle East,” says McGovern. “It’s rice in China—rice wine was made from grain, similar to beer. It’s corn in the new world—Chicha is made from corn.

That got me to thinking about Gobekli Tepe, it has something to teach us about transition from hunter-gather to agriculture.
There’s a rather fascinating National Geo Special, much better than all the weird stuff being said about it. ...

Gobekli Tepe - National Geographic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDXTmCwAETM

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Posted: 29 May 2017 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 07:21 AM
Lausten - 29 May 2017 06:39 AM

How is it worse? With some fairly simple principles, your food is now right out your back door. Instead of wandering around, hoping you’ll find, you make it and store it. You overcome the drought and famine cycles.

http://discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race

Lengthy but also states that it led to gender roles, the rise of religion, social inequality, poorer nutrition and increased risk for diseases.

It’s kind of a bubble burst for me. I always thought farming was an improvement but I guess not. Makes me question progress.

I’ve never said this to anyone, but you should read less.

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Posted: 29 May 2017 10:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Lausten - 29 May 2017 06:48 PM
Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 07:21 AM
Lausten - 29 May 2017 06:39 AM

How is it worse? With some fairly simple principles, your food is now right out your back door. Instead of wandering around, hoping you’ll find, you make it and store it. You overcome the drought and famine cycles.

http://discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race

Lengthy but also states that it led to gender roles, the rise of religion, social inequality, poorer nutrition and increased risk for diseases.

It’s kind of a bubble burst for me. I always thought farming was an improvement but I guess not. Makes me question progress.

I’ve never said this to anyone, but you should read less.

Why is that? Isn’t the purpose of reading to broaden the mind and gain knowledge and new perspectives. Everyone else seems to have a comment on the matter.

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Posted: 29 May 2017 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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DarronS - 29 May 2017 05:42 PM
Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 10:46 AM
LoisL - 29 May 2017 09:49 AM

They ran out of food. They had to do something. They discovered that growing food was better than migrating for an unreliable supply.  Survival of the fittest.

What about all the after effects

The people who started farming and built the first civilizations had no way of knowing about the after effects. They were trying to build better lives, and they succeeded. The unintended consequences came much later. We are now living in those consequences and have the benefit of hindsight to see how much agriculture has hurt our ecosphere. Agriculture has also given us many advantages, but in the long term it may do more harm than good. The originals farmers could not possibly have foreseen all the consequences of their advanced technology, so they did the best they could with the available knowledge.

I suppose you are right. Everything seems like a good idea at the time but only time will tell if it sucks down the line. To say it’s a mistake now is lacking a bit of perspective to me. Hindsight is always a bitch.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 01:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 07:21 AM
Lausten - 29 May 2017 06:39 AM

How is it worse? With some fairly simple principles, your food is now right out your back door. Instead of wandering around, hoping you’ll find, you make it and store it. You overcome the drought and famine cycles.

http://discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race

Lengthy but also states that it led to gender roles, the rise of religion, social inequality, poorer nutrition and increased risk for diseases.

It’s kind of a bubble burst for me. I always thought farming was an improvement but I guess not. Makes me question progress.

Well, in the hunter-gatherer scenario things were kept in balance because the available game would control population levels. Tribal communities would not had so much spare time to breed and sustain numbers as much as would be the case in a more ‘agricultural’ situation.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 10:12 PM

Why is that? Isn’t the purpose of reading to broaden the mind and gain knowledge and new perspectives. Everyone else seems to have a comment on the matter.

That is the purpose, but it’s not what you do. You confirm things you already think, or you take part of what the person says and get “stuck” on it. You don’t read critically. You don’t look at what they left out, you don’t question it. Darron explained some of that to you in the post you responded to.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Poor nutrition?  The article that was cited gives the impression that farmers don’t grow anything but corn and potatoes.  Geez!  I suppose if they did, we’d be in big trouble, but that not what I see when I go in the grocery store.  There are all kind of fruits and vegetables being grown, some I’ve never even heard of.  Hunter/gatherers?  What if you were living in a oak/pine forest, where I live, and there just didn’t happen to be any fruit trees within a hundred miles?  Agriculture is the BEST idea the human race ever came up with.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Lausten - 30 May 2017 04:28 AM
Titanomachina - 29 May 2017 10:12 PM

Why is that? Isn’t the purpose of reading to broaden the mind and gain knowledge and new perspectives. Everyone else seems to have a comment on the matter.

That is the purpose, but it’s not what you do. You confirm things you already think, or you take part of what the person says and get “stuck” on it. You don’t read critically. You don’t look at what they left out, you don’t question it. Darron explained some of that to you in the post you responded to.

Isn’t it drawing attention to points people would just brush off? Also now that we know what happened wouldn’t we go back to hunter gatherer to save the environment? More to the point ourselves? And what if further implications? Are we slaves to the technology we created and that resulted from agriculture? Were we designed more for a subsistence lifestyle and are we straying from evolution?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 10:12 AM

Isn’t it drawing attention to points people would just brush off? Also now that we know what happened wouldn’t we go back to hunter gatherer to save the environment? More to the point ourselves? And what if further implications? Are we slaves to the technology we created and that resulted from agriculture? Were we designed more for a subsistence lifestyle and are we straying from evolution?

You can’t “stray” from evolution. We weren’t designed. We aren’t slaves. The environment just is, it has no feelings about saved. If you want to go back to hunting and gathering, move to Montana. We have already addressed the quality of the article, as usual, you don’t engage, you just keep saying “but, but, but” and “now this bothers me.”

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Posted: 30 May 2017 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Lausten - 30 May 2017 10:41 AM
Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 10:12 AM

Isn’t it drawing attention to points people would just brush off? Also now that we know what happened wouldn’t we go back to hunter gatherer to save the environment? More to the point ourselves? And what if further implications? Are we slaves to the technology we created and that resulted from agriculture? Were we designed more for a subsistence lifestyle and are we straying from evolution?

You can’t “stray” from evolution. We weren’t designed. We aren’t slaves. The environment just is, it has no feelings about saved. If you want to go back to hunting and gathering, move to Montana. We have already addressed the quality of the article, as usual, you don’t engage, you just keep saying “but, but, but” and “now this bothers me.”

It seems that it’s just you who has addressed the quality of the article. If you want to talk about evolution what about the problems the result from sitting most of the day? Isn’t the proof that man was not designed to do that?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 04:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 03:54 PM
Lausten - 30 May 2017 10:41 AM
Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 10:12 AM

Isn’t it drawing attention to points people would just brush off? Also now that we know what happened wouldn’t we go back to hunter gatherer to save the environment? More to the point ourselves? And what if further implications? Are we slaves to the technology we created and that resulted from agriculture? Were we designed more for a subsistence lifestyle and are we straying from evolution?

You can’t “stray” from evolution. We weren’t designed. We aren’t slaves. The environment just is, it has no feelings about saved. If you want to go back to hunting and gathering, move to Montana. We have already addressed the quality of the article, as usual, you don’t engage, you just keep saying “but, but, but” and “now this bothers me.”

It seems that it’s just you who has addressed the quality of the article. If you want to talk about evolution what about the problems the result from sitting most of the day? Isn’t the proof that man was not designed to do that?

What about the problems from getting measles and dying? Isn’t that proof that we were designed to create science?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 29 May 2017 06:21 PM
DougC - 29 May 2017 11:11 AM

It’s possible that agriculture began to provide alcohol not bread.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2527074/Did-BEER-create-modern-society-Ancient-man-developed-agriculture-brew-alcohol-not-bake-bread-claims-scientist.html

As for the development of agriculture being a “mistake” we somehow need to correct, it’s what we do with it that is important. Plentiful food supply has allowed the creation of complex societies and the only reason that we have the science and ability to understand such complex issues is due to the development of agriculture.

Remaining hunter-gatherers would be no guarantee of survival of the species either, in that state the human species almost went extinct about 75,000 years ago.

That’s interesting, and it led to another story, http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/beer-domesticated-man

Beer Domesticated Man
By Gloria Dawson, Dec 19, 2013
http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/beer-domesticated-man

... Today, the earliest chemical evidence of barley-based beer is at the Godin Tepe archaeological site near the Iran and Iraq border, and dates back to 3,500 B.C. But scientists believe that grain-based fermented drinks have a much longer history than that, and were used around the world. “It isn’t just wheat and barley in the Middle East,” says McGovern. “It’s rice in China—rice wine was made from grain, similar to beer. It’s corn in the new world—Chicha is made from corn.

That got me to thinking about Gobekli Tepe, it has something to teach us about transition from hunter-gather to agriculture.
There’s a rather fascinating National Geo Special, much better than all the weird stuff being said about it. ...

Gobekli Tepe - National Geographic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDXTmCwAETM

I didn’t go through all that, but it’s possibly that ancient beer was also an antibiotic containing tetracyline.

http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/stories/2010/09/07/beer.html

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Posted: 30 May 2017 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Lausten - 30 May 2017 04:38 PM
Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 03:54 PM
Lausten - 30 May 2017 10:41 AM
Titanomachina - 30 May 2017 10:12 AM

Isn’t it drawing attention to points people would just brush off? Also now that we know what happened wouldn’t we go back to hunter gatherer to save the environment? More to the point ourselves? And what if further implications? Are we slaves to the technology we created and that resulted from agriculture? Were we designed more for a subsistence lifestyle and are we straying from evolution?

You can’t “stray” from evolution. We weren’t designed. We aren’t slaves. The environment just is, it has no feelings about saved. If you want to go back to hunting and gathering, move to Montana. We have already addressed the quality of the article, as usual, you don’t engage, you just keep saying “but, but, but” and “now this bothers me.”

It seems that it’s just you who has addressed the quality of the article. If you want to talk about evolution what about the problems the result from sitting most of the day? Isn’t the proof that man was not designed to do that?

What about the problems from getting measles and dying? Isn’t that proof that we were designed to create science?

I don’t know if that is what it means. But isn’t science what causes most of the problems and that we need science to fix the problems we made? Was civilization really a step forward?

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