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Is Too Much Liberalism a Good Thing?
Posted: 30 May 2017 03:15 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Is too much liberalism in some western societies giving rise to damaging trends that undermine the cohesiveness of such societies in terms of gender roles and sexual preferences that have, in the past, usually accompanied a disintegration and ultimate end to a healthy, functional social and political system?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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There are too many assumptions in this question. I think of liberalism as a very centrist point of view, one that supports societies. I don’t what “undermining” you are talking about, although I know what that usually means. But I don’t want to respond to my own assumptions.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Can you back you assumption with any facts?
I know of nothing that “too much of” brought down any social of political system.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Liberalism isn’t giving rise those issues, they’ve always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to “victim-worship”.

It will die out soon.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Lausten - 30 May 2017 04:37 AM

There are too many assumptions in this question. I think of liberalism as a very centrist point of view, one that supports societies. I don’t what “undermining” you are talking about, although I know what that usually means. But I don’t want to respond to my own assumptions.

Well, the question posed was asking if there were any negative consequences in having very liberal societies.

Presumably you don’t think there are, I’m a little unclear.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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The problem isn’t liberals. The problem is conservatives who think their ignorance and bigotry gives them a right to dictate how other people live.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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deros - 30 May 2017 04:48 AM

Can you back you assumption with any facts?
I know of nothing that “too much of” brought down any social of political system.

What about pornography, promiscuity, families where both parents are working, leading to lack of child rearing, drug addiction, Anorexia nervosa, obesity, cosmetic surgery, unrestricted immigration, lack of strong male roles, rampant advertising, debt, crime, etc?

Why did Trump get elected? People had had enough of the liberal elite.

[ Edited: 30 May 2017 07:14 AM by webplodder ]
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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Beltane - 30 May 2017 06:08 AM

Liberalism isn’t giving rise those issues, they’ve always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to “victim-worship”.

It will die out soon.

Yep but isn’t that just all part of an over liberal attitude?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 06:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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DarronS - 30 May 2017 06:19 AM

The problem isn’t liberals. The problem is conservatives who think their ignorance and bigotry gives them a right to dictate how other people live.

So, are you really saying we can’t have too much liberalism? That there are no downsides to it?

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Posted: 30 May 2017 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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webplodder - 30 May 2017 06:52 AM
DarronS - 30 May 2017 06:19 AM

The problem isn’t liberals. The problem is conservatives who think their ignorance and bigotry gives them a right to dictate how other people live.

So, are you really saying we can’t have too much liberalism? That there are no downsides to it?

That is a separate question than what you asked originally. You’re moving the goalposts and I won’t play that game. This is what you asked about:

Is too much liberalism in some western societies giving rise to damaging trends that undermine the cohesiveness of such societies in terms of gender roles and sexual preferences that have, in the past, usually accompanied a disintegration and ultimate end to a healthy, functional social and political system?

That is a loaded question and assumes that giving people freedom to choose gender roles and sexual preferences damages society, leading to social collapse. You have no evidence of that happening and you imply liberalism is to blame for society’s problems. I think not. Bigoted, ignorant rednecks who impose their intolerant views on the rest of society are a far greater threat than people who welcome diversity. Look at the people around the country crying about keeping trans people out of certain bathrooms. They’re doing so out of fear and ignorance yet believe fervently that their children are in imminent danger from something they don’t understand when the reality is their kids’ Sunday school teacher is far more likely a sexual predator than trans people who want nothing more than to fit into society and not draw attention to themselves.

As evidence regarding my charge of ignorance, see the thread about whether people should get to choose their own gender. I asked several times for people opposing gender choice to justify their belief using an ethical theory. Not one of them had a clue what the words"ethical theory” mean. Worse yet, not one had the intellectual curiosity to to type “ethical theory” into the search bar at the top of the browser window and hit the Return key. They came back with emotional rants, hypothetical situations and empty rhetoric. I even got accused of trying to define “ethical theory” when I called them out on their posts.

If you want to continue this discussion rationally you can point out examples of societies that have collapsed because liberals gave people the freedom to choose their own gender roles.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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DarronS - 30 May 2017 07:10 AM
webplodder - 30 May 2017 06:52 AM
DarronS - 30 May 2017 06:19 AM

The problem isn’t liberals. The problem is conservatives who think their ignorance and bigotry gives them a right to dictate how other people live.

So, are you really saying we can’t have too much liberalism? That there are no downsides to it?

That is a separate question than what you asked originally. You’re moving the goalposts and I won’t play that game. This is what you asked about:

Is too much liberalism in some western societies giving rise to damaging trends that undermine the cohesiveness of such societies in terms of gender roles and sexual preferences that have, in the past, usually accompanied a disintegration and ultimate end to a healthy, functional social and political system?

That is a loaded question and assumes that giving people freedom to choose gender roles and sexual preferences damages society, leading to social collapse. You have no evidence of that happening and you imply liberalism is to blame for society’s problems. I think not. Bigoted, ignorant rednecks who impose their intolerant views on the rest of society are a far greater threat than people who welcome diversity. Look at the people around the country crying about keeping trans people out of certain bathrooms. They’re doing so out of fear and ignorance yet believe fervently that their children are in imminent danger from something they don’t understand when the reality is their kids’ Sunday school teacher is far more likely a sexual predator than trans people who want nothing more than to fit into society and not draw attention to themselves.

As evidence regarding my charge of ignorance, see the thread about whether people should get to choose their own gender. I asked several times for people opposing gender choice to justify their belief using an ethical theory. Not one of them had a clue what the words"ethical theory” mean. Worse yet, not one had the intellectual curiosity to to type “ethical theory” into the search bar at the top of the browser window and hit the Return key. They came back with emotional rants, hypothetical situations and empty rhetoric. I even got accused of trying to define “ethical theory” when I called them out on their posts.

But is it legitimate to ask whether gender-choice has become an issue driven by our liberal attitudes? Why was this a non-issue not so long ago?

In other words, do overly liberal attitudes spawn problems that hitherto did not exist? If so, then it is the fault of the liberals that we have many of today’s problems and the claim that such problems always existed in society and that we have to more tolerant of them is bogus. It liberalism itself that is creating problems.

If you want to continue this discussion rationally you can point out examples of societies that have collapsed because liberals gave people the freedom to choose their own gender roles.

We have already seen a major change in society in the election of Trump. Many have turned against the liberal elite, much to their surprise.

[ Edited: 30 May 2017 07:29 AM by webplodder ]
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Posted: 30 May 2017 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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webplodder - 30 May 2017 06:48 AM
Beltane - 30 May 2017 06:08 AM

Liberalism isn’t giving rise those issues, they’ve always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to “victim-worship”.

It will die out soon.

Yep but isn’t that just all part of an over liberal attitude?

Don’t know if I’m reading you right; are you asking if gender and sexual disorders stem from liberalism?

If so, the answer to that is no. The disorders themselves are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Liberal society (the current liberal society) then aggravates the disorders at the expense of everybody else.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Too busy to read the whole thread right, or to get an image past the spam filter, but google “political spectrum” and you find charts that put liberalism right in the middle. Most of Western civilization has shifted to the right, so the “center” of the spectrum when you poll people is on the right. But by definition of the word, liberal is centrist, it tries to include everyone and balance the rights of the individual with the rights of the majority or any group.

You might mean far-left when you say liberal. But unless you say what programs and ideas you are talking about, I won’t know.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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webplodder - 30 May 2017 07:27 AM
DarronS - 30 May 2017 07:10 AM

As evidence regarding my charge of ignorance, see the thread about whether people should get to choose their own gender. I asked several times for people opposing gender choice to justify their belief using an ethical theory. Not one of them had a clue what the words"ethical theory” mean. Worse yet, not one had the intellectual curiosity to to type “ethical theory” into the search bar at the top of the browser window and hit the Return key. They came back with emotional rants, hypothetical situations and empty rhetoric. I even got accused of trying to define “ethical theory” when I called them out on their posts.

But is it legitimate to ask whether gender-choice has become an issue driven by our liberal attitudes? Why was this a non-issue not so long ago?

In other words, do overly liberal attitudes spawn problems that hitherto did not exist? If so, then it is the fault of the liberals that we have many of today’s problems and the claim that such problems always existed in society and that we have to more tolerant of them is bogus. It liberalism itself that is creating problems.

Well, glad I made the choice to stay out of the gender choice thread.

webplodder; gender choice was never a non-issue. It was a huge issue with people who wanted to control it and they controlled it quite successfully. So successful that mainstream Americans are unaware of all the cultures current and past that have been fine with it. If it was a non-issue, why did the Bible address it? Why were there laws against it?

It seems like a problem to people now because liberals are saying people born a certain way should have the same rights as people born another way. Liberals are making an issue about human rights. If that’s a problem, then you are against humanity. You are calling someone born with male genitals but female hormones a problem. Your solution is to say that calling them a problem is not a problem. That’s insane.

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Posted: 30 May 2017 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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There is a better question, is too much conservatism a good thing, especially reactionary conservatism supported by religious myth?

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
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Posted: 30 May 2017 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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webplodder - 30 May 2017 06:42 AM
deros - 30 May 2017 04:48 AM

Can you back you assumption with any facts?
I know of nothing that “too much of” brought down any social of political system.

What about pornography, promiscuity, families where both parents are working, leading to lack of child rearing, drug addiction, Anorexia nervosa, obesity, cosmetic surgery, unrestricted immigration, lack of strong male roles, rampant advertising, debt, crime, etc?

Why did Trump get elected? People had had enough of the liberal elite.

Trump got elected because the the level of intentional disinformation has reached a critical point in the US and much of that is about how the liberals “elites” are destroying America. Something you’ve obviously also bought into.

While the conservatives somehow try and brand themselves as freedom lovers, which is ridiculous. If they had their way the US would be a theological dictatorship.

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