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FDR and World War II Misconceptions
Posted: 30 May 2017 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]
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DougC
Let’s look at the facts.
One of America’s most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now.
He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time.
If the US was faced with the same challenge now it’s likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.
The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy.
Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy.
Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist.
Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power.
And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US.
The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large.
Liberals aren’t trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution.
Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party

To begin with, the Russian thing is completely bogus. I explained this in your other thread a few months ago. Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy. Drop the cold war bullcrap. Its laughable and it will go nowhere.


Re: FDR - He was a good president with domestic issues, his foreign policy was straight up American imperialism of the WASPiest kind.

America intervened in WW2 ultimately for economic reasons. Partly because Japan and Germany’s military activities were disruptive to American economic interests overseas, but also to continue the Wilsonian doctrine of America replacing the waning European empires. The goal was to bring the lands which used to be under European control into the American sphere of influence. You could argue some good came of it, but it was mostly detrimental to the world. We didn’t fight for self-defence - neither Germany or Japan was a military threat to the USA - they didn’t have the logistics or manpower - though Japan was the more immediate (small) danger. We didn’t fight to rid the world of fascism or racism - even if that was a motive, we clearly failed. And we didn’t play the biggest role in defeating Germany…..that was the Soviet Union.

tldr - liberalism didn’t defeat evil in the mid 20th century.

 


 

  

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Posted: 30 May 2017 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Like I said not worth the time or effort, go back to Breitbart we don’t need your crap here.

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Posted: 31 May 2017 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The standard with which the great FDR treated Japanese Americans was probably a thousand times worse than how the un-presidential Donald Trump has talked about doing or tried to do with current and prospective Muslim-Americans.

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Posted: 31 May 2017 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 31 May 2017 02:11 PM

The standard with which the great FDR treated Japanese Americans was probably a thousand times worse than how the un-presidential Donald Trump has talked about doing or tried to do with current and prospective Muslim-Americans.

Good point, and that little piece of American history pales in comparison to the mayhem-inducing imperialist policies FDR favored.

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Posted: 26 June 2017 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy. Drop the cold war bullcrap. Its laughable and it will go nowhere.  

The bullcrap is all yours I’m afraid, Russia never stopped presenting an existential threat to the US and it is about to get much worse.

http:// http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/19362/

Perhaps you’d like to explain how a nation that is armed with almost 2,000 nuclear warheads many aimed at hundreds of millions of civilians living in the west is not our enemy. A nation that is going out of it’s way to make sure we understand just how dangerous the new generation of ICBMs it’s about to roll out next year is going to be, describing the missile in terms of how large a state or country just one RS-28 would be able to utterly destroy - that would be all of Texas or all of France. Maybe Nato should call the Satan 2 the “Love Kitten” for how warm and fluffy people on the receiving end will feel for the nanosecond before they are vapourized when one of these relics of a past that should have been left behind is used.

As for Russia hacking the US election. it’s not like Putin is even trying to be subtle in his attacks on our elections.

http:// http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/russian-hackers-targeted-21-states-presidential-election-says/

Russian hackers targeted 21 US states’ election systems in last year’s presidential race, a Department of Homeland Security official told Congress on Wednesday.

Jeanette Manfra, the department’s acting deputy undersecretary of cyber security, would not identify which states had been targeted, citing confidentiality agreements. She reiterated that there was no evidence that any actual votes were manipulated.

“As of right now, we have evidence that election-related systems in 21 states were targeted,” Ms Manfra told the Senate Intelligence Committee, which investigating Russia’s meddling in the 2016 presidential election.

As I said, why even bother with someone clearly here for the dissemination of falsehoods in the interests of some of the worst agendas on the planet right now.

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[ Edited: 27 June 2017 05:40 PM by DougC ]
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Posted: 27 June 2017 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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DougC - 26 June 2017 10:44 PM
Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy. Drop the cold war bullcrap. Its laughable and it will go nowhere.  

The bullcrap is all yours I’m afraid, Russia never stopped presenting an existential threat to the US and it is about to get much worse.

http:// http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/19362/

Perhaps you’d like to explain how a nation that is armed with almost 2,000 nuclear warheads many aimed at hundreds of millions of civilians living in the west is not our enemy. A nation that is going out of it’s way to make sure we understand just how dangerous the new generation of ICBMs it’s about to roll out next year is going to be, describing the missile in terms of how large a state or country just one RS-28 would be able to utterly destroy - that would be all of Texas or all of France. Maybe Nato should call the Satan 2 the “Love Kitten” for how warm and fluffy people on the receiving end will feel for the nanosecond before they are vapourized when one of these relics of a past that should have been left behind is used.

As for Russia hacking the US election. it’s not like Putin is even trying to be subtle in his attacks on our elections.

http:// http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/russian-hackers-targeted-21-states-presidential-election-says/

Russian hackers targeted 21 US states’ election systems in last year’s presidential race, a Department of Homeland Security official told Congress on Wednesday.

Jeanette Manfra, the department’s acting deputy undersecretary of cyber security, would not identify which states had been targeted, citing confidentiality agreements. She reiterated that there was no evidence that any actual votes were manipulated.

“As of right now, we have evidence that election-related systems in 21 states were targeted,” Ms Manfra told the Senate Intelligence Committee, which investigating Russia’s meddling in the 2016 presidential election.

As I said, why even bother with someone clearly here for the dissemination of falsehoods in the interests of some of the worst agendas on the planet right now.

line added to get past spam filter…. ignore

I don’t know what your problem is, but don’t mess up my thread with your stupid cold war paranoia.

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Posted: 28 June 2017 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy.

Beltane, I’ve enjoyed the fresh perspectives in many of your posts, but must respectfully disagree to some degree here.

1) Trump isn’t a KGB agent, most likely true.  However, he acts like one, saying for months (until recently) that the Russian election hacking was a hoax, a blatantly false assertion agreed to by nobody but the Russians.  Trump has been essentially selling Russian propaganda, wittingly or not.

2) Russia didn’t steal the election, again most likely true.  They did however attempt to destroy the credibility of election, which is even more dangerous than just stealing one.  They’re also attempting this all over Europe.  Their goal is to make everybody look as corrupt and crooked as they are.

3) Russia is not the enemy, again true.  The Russian people are not the enemy for sure. But the Russian government _is_ the enemy. The the Russian government is high level organized crime which exists primarily to steal as much money from the Russian people as possible. 

The philosophy of this organized crime racket is brilliantly clear minded.  Why rob a bank when you can steal the entire country?  Why run from the cops when you can be the cops?  If you rob a bank you are a criminal on the run, but if you rob an entire country you are a world leader who is invited to give speeches at the U.N.  The Russian government is nothing other than organized crime, just much smarter organized crime than the mere regular mafia.

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Posted: 28 June 2017 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Tanny - 28 June 2017 06:05 AM
Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy.

Beltane, I’ve enjoyed the fresh perspectives in many of your posts, but must respectfully disagree to some degree here.

1) Trump isn’t a KGB agent, most likely true.  However, he acts like one, saying for months (until recently) that the Russian election hacking was a hoax, a blatantly false assertion agreed to by nobody but the Russians.  Trump has been essentially selling Russian propaganda, wittingly or not.

2) Russia didn’t steal the election, again most likely true.  They did however attempt to destroy the credibility of election, which is even more dangerous than just stealing one.  They’re also attempting this all over Europe.  Their goal is to make everybody look as corrupt and crooked as they are.

3) Russia is not the enemy, again true.  The Russian people are not the enemy for sure. But the Russian government _is_ the enemy. The the Russian government is high level organized crime which exists primarily to steal as much money from the Russian people as possible. 

The philosophy of this organized crime racket is brilliantly clear minded.  Why rob a bank when you can steal the entire country?  Why run from the cops when you can be the cops?  If you rob a bank you are a criminal on the run, but if you rob an entire country you are a world leader who is invited to give speeches at the U.N.  The Russian government is nothing other than organized crime, just much smarter organized crime than the mere regular mafia.

Good points all.

I don’t think anyone is claiming that Trump is a KGB agent, I know I’m not. What the evidence indicates is that the Russian government worked to undermine the last election in key areas at crucial points in favour of Donald Trump. The main focus of this was to steal information from the DNC then release it timed to focus criticism - deserved or not - on the democrats to block any real scrutiny of Trump in the run-up to the election,

After the Billy Bush tape was released and in Trump’s own words he appeared to be sexual predator his support plummeted and in any normal election he would have been un-electable. Then the Russian dumped a massive amount of material from the DNC and that became the story, not that in Trump’s own words he liked to stick his hands in the crotches of women whether they were willing or not and his tongue down their throats. Any time that support shifted to Clinton the Russians made another attack with the material they had available and the Trump team was primed and ready to take advantage of this. How would they know how to coordinate efforts, that would need some form of contact between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence and government officials… which there was with people like Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort, Jeff Sessions and more.

Trump didn’t need to be a KGB agent to benefit from the Russian attack on the US election, he just had to follow the script they supplied. And the fact that he was working for them likely means he is not now working for us.

And all Russian is not our enemy, the Putin government and the violent cliche that stands behind it is. Just as it is the enemy of the people of Russia many of whom it has killed and robbed of huge amounts of wealth. Putin and his government are one of the most corrupt and murderous on the planet and they are trying to place people just like them in power around the world. That includes Trump.

Putin is the enemy, not Russia. That’s why real Russian patriots like Alexander Litvinenko, Anna Politskovskaya and many many others were murdered for daring to stand up to Putin and the people behind him. Russia is effectively under the control of the KGB morphed into the most powerful organized crime group on the planet after the fall of the Soviet Union. They have the resources of an entire massive nation to do their work and incredible firepower at all levels to take out any opposition.

https:// http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/05/ten-years-putin-press-kremlin-grip-russia-media-tightens

No other reporter has been assigned Anna Politkovskaya’s desk in Novaya Gazeta’s newsroom. It remains as a memorial, alongside her photograph and those of other murdered journalists at the newspaper, and as a reminder of the danger of the work.
My mum and Anna Politkovskaya: women who died for the truth

Ten years after Politkovskaya was shot in the lobby of her apartment block in Moscow, Novaya Gazeta continues to be one of the few outlets for hard-hitting independent journalism in Russia. Its reporters still work from the North Caucasus, one the most dangerous part of the region.

http:// http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-19647226

A public inquiry into the killing of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko has concluded that President Putin probably approved his assassination. But who was he and why did his death cause such controversy?

Former spy Alexander Litvinenko was killed in November 2006, leading to a clouding of relations between London and Moscow.

The 43-year-old had been an officer with the Federal Security Service (FSB), the successor to the KGB, but he fled to Britain where he became a fierce critic of the Kremlin. In his final years he also became a British citizen.

After he was killed by radioactive polonium-210, believed to have been administered in a cup of tea, it emerged the father-of-one was being paid by the British secret service MI6.

“People” like beltane are mouthpieces for murderers, liars, and thieves, nothing more.

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Posted: 28 June 2017 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Tanny - 28 June 2017 06:05 AM
Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

Trump isn’t a KGB agent, Russia didn’t steal the election, and Russia is not the enemy.

Beltane, I’ve enjoyed the fresh perspectives in many of your posts, but must respectfully disagree to some degree here.

1) Trump isn’t a KGB agent, most likely true.  However, he acts like one, saying for months (until recently) that the Russian election hacking was a hoax, a blatantly false assertion agreed to by nobody but the Russians.  Trump has been essentially selling Russian propaganda, wittingly or not.

2) Russia didn’t steal the election, again most likely true.  They did however attempt to destroy the credibility of election, which is even more dangerous than just stealing one.  They’re also attempting this all over Europe.  Their goal is to make everybody look as corrupt and crooked as they are.

3) Russia is not the enemy, again true.  The Russian people are not the enemy for sure. But the Russian government _is_ the enemy. The the Russian government is high level organized crime which exists primarily to steal as much money from the Russian people as possible. 

The philosophy of this organized crime racket is brilliantly clear minded.  Why rob a bank when you can steal the entire country?  Why run from the cops when you can be the cops?  If you rob a bank you are a criminal on the run, but if you rob an entire country you are a world leader who is invited to give speeches at the U.N.  The Russian government is nothing other than organized crime, just much smarter organized crime than the mere regular mafia.

I’m only responding to this nonsensical post because you’re new.

This crap doesn’t belong here.

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Posted: 29 June 2017 02:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Beltane - 28 June 2017 06:00 PM

I’m only responding to this nonsensical post because you’re new.

Ah, the above it all defense.  Very efficient, not too credible.

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Posted: 29 June 2017 06:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

We didn’t fight for self-defence - neither Germany or Japan was a military threat to the USA - they didn’t have the logistics or manpower - 

Well, what do you think would have happened in the 1950’s when Germany, the world’s leader in ballistic missile technology, married missiles to a-bombs?

And then there’s this little thing called Pearl Harbor.  If we hadn’t responded to that, what message would that have sent to the Japanese?  Where would you have drawn the line?  Is Hawaii not part of the United States in your opinion?

Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

And we didn’t play the biggest role in defeating Germany…..that was the Soviet Union.

This is completely true, great point.  BTW, for anyone who is interested, there is a great documentary series on Netflix specifically about the eastern front, Russia vs. Germany.  Multi-part series which goes in to great detail about the entire campaign from beginning to end.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/soviet-storm-ww2-east/
 

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Posted: 29 June 2017 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Tanny - 29 June 2017 06:00 AM
Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

We didn’t fight for self-defence - neither Germany or Japan was a military threat to the USA - they didn’t have the logistics or manpower - 

Well, what do you think would have happened in the 1950’s when Germany, the world’s leader in ballistic missile technology, married missiles to a-bombs?

Probably wouldn’t have turned out that way.

And then there’s this little thing called Pearl Harbor.  If we hadn’t responded to that, what message would that have sent to the Japanese?  Where would you have drawn the line?  Is Hawaii not part of the United States in your opinion?
 

Well, Hawaii wasn’t a state then, but fighting Japan was the right thing to do. It doesn’t change the fact that Japan was never capable of invading America, but when somebody attacks your Navy with that intensity, you’ve got to hurt them.

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Posted: 04 July 2017 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Beltane - 27 June 2017 07:05 PM

I don’t know what your problem is, but don’t mess up my thread with your stupid cold war paranoia.

The only problem I have is you twisting history to meet your bias and if you don’t want to hear anything that conflicts with your bias then don’t participate here. You may have started this thread but you don’t own the discussion.

As for Cold War paranoia, only an idiot would claim that we now live in a safe world or that a nation that still has thousands of weapons of massed destruction pointed at us and quite likely has been aiding those attacking us is our friend.

How about the idea the FSB trained Ayman al-Zawahiri who then used that expertise to kill thousands of Americans and help kick off a an ongoing war that shows no sign of ending and has taken many, many lives. It would be completely consistent with the KGB and other Soviet organizations that trained generations of terrorists and spies to attack western nations, so explain to me how the underlying conflict ever really ended.

http://www.businessinsider.com/exploring-al-qaedas-murky-connection-to-russian-intelligence-2014-6

That Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden’s right-hand man and the leader of the global jihad movement since bin Laden’s death in May 2011, spent almost a half-year in the mid-1990s in the custody of Russian intelligence is admitted by both sides and is a matter of public record.[3]

Just as significant, Zawahiri’s Russian sojourn occurred at a pivotal point in the development of al-Qa’ida; the shift in strategy, resulting in attacks on the “far enemy” (i.e. the United States), the road leading to 9/11, occurred after Zawahiri’s imprisonment by the Russians.

Zawahiri has been tight-lipped about his half-year in Russia; his numerous writings and pronouncements about his life barely mention the tale. “God blinded them to our identities,” he explained. The FSB agrees that they failed to identify the leading holy warrior. “In 1997, Russian special services were not aware of al-Zawahiri,” elaborated an FSB spokesman in 2003: “However, later, using various databases, we managed to identify this former detainee.”[5]

There are many reasons to doubt the official story told by both sides in the affair. In the first place, Zawahiri was one of the world’s most wanted terrorists in 1996, having played a leading role in the assassination of President Anwar Sadat in 1981; the doctor’s role in the subsequent public trial was televised in many countries.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/12/how-the-soviet-union-transformed-terrorism/250433/

In the 1960s and 70s, the Soviet Union sponsored waves of political violence against the West. The Red Brigades in Italy and the German Red Army Faction both terrorized Europe through bank robberies, kidnapping, and acts of sabotage. The Soviets wanted to use these left-wing terror groups to destabilize Italy and Germany to break up NATO. State-sponsored terrorism was a deeply Soviet phenomenon, but its practice did not stop when the Soviet Union ended. While state sponsorship continues, terrorism has mutated into something even harder for us to understand and respond to. But some of the roots of today’s terrorism go back to the Soviet Union.

Russia is the birthplace of modern terrorism. The Russian nihilists of the 19th century combined political powerlessness with a propensity for gruesome violence, but their attacks were aimed at the Tsarist state and ruling classes. Later, the Soviet Union and its allies actively supported terrorism as a means to politically inconvenience and undermine its opponents. The East German Stasi and the KGB provided funds, equipment, and “networking” opportunities to the myriad of leftist German terrorist cells in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. The Red Army Faction and the 2nd June Movement in Germany, as well as the Red Brigades in Italy, shared Marxist philosophies, a hatred of America, solidarity with the Palestinians, and opposition to the generation, some of its members still in power, that had supported the Nazis and fascists. They were good foundations for a Cold War fifth column. It was not just Europe, either: Soviet equipment, funding, training and guidance flowed across the globe, either directly from the KGB or through the agencies of key allies, like the Rumanian Securitate, the Cuban General Intelligence Directorate.

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Posted: 04 July 2017 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Beltane - 28 June 2017 06:00 PM

I’m only responding to this nonsensical post because you’re new.

This crap doesn’t belong here.

No, it’s your nonsensical crap and gaslighting that has no place here.

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Posted: 04 July 2017 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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We didn’t fight for self-defence - neither Germany or Japan was a military threat to the USA - they didn’t have the logistics or manpower -

What a load of complete revisionist bullshit.

The US was totally fighting in self defense. Going into WW II it had one of the smallest militaries in the developed world, the US Army was smaller than the Portuguese in 1939 it was 17th in size in the world.

After the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor the US was entirely vulnerable to the Japanese fleet and military in the Pacific until the tactical victory at the Coral Sea and the strategic victory at Midway.

And Germany was a military threat to the entire world and had declared war on the US not the other way around. The only thing that prevented Germany from dominating the world was Hitler biting off to much to chew too soon, German forces were capable of incredible violence and German scientists gave Hitler revolutionary weapons that could have included nuclear tipped ICBMs if things had gone just a bit differently. Keep in mind it was in Germany that nuclear fission was discovered, where the first long range ballistic missiles were developed and where a resurgent German military had defeated all opposing nations in the first years of the war in a way not seen before.

Like I said, this guys BS stinks to high heaven.

I don’t know if he’s some BS artist working for the FSB or what, I do know I don’t believe a single thing he posts.

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Posted: 04 July 2017 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Some numbers on the US military to show just how much danger the nation was in going into WW II and how close it came to being overwhelmed by the combined forces of Japan and Germany before it could mobilize.

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/us-military.html

Compared to other nations like Germany and the Soviet Union the US had almost no military at the start of WW II in 1939.

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/us-military.html

334,473 personnel for the entire US armed forces in 1939, the Soviets lost that many troops in many of the encirclements that they suffered in 1941 and immediately replaced from the millions of reservists that Stalin had.

The US was not a major military power in the 1930s and it took a complete re-ordering of US society to create the troops and equipment needed to first turn back the German and Japanese forces on both coasts then take the fight to them.

Don’t believe a thing beltane is posting, it’s the intellectual equivalent of poison.

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