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FDR and World War II Misconceptions
Posted: 04 July 2017 09:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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DougC - 04 July 2017 07:14 PM

Claiming that the US went into WW II just take over the world is not factual. It wasn’t even prepared for the war, in 1939 its army was outmatched by Portugal. It was forced into a war against its wishes and the interests of most of its population that wanted nothing to do with the war. It was attacked by one militaristic dictatorship and had war declared on it by another. How the hell does that equate with Roosevelt wanting to take over the world as beltane claims?

I didn’t claim America intervened in order to “take over the world”, here is what I said:

America intervened in WW2 ultimately for economic reasons. Partly because Japan and Germany’s military activities were disruptive to American economic interests overseas, but also to continue the Wilsonian doctrine of America replacing the waning European empires. The goal was to bring the lands which used to be under European control into the American sphere of influence.

And that’s exactly what we did. That’s why we pursued the policies we did. The proof is in American foreign policy of the post-war era.

You’re correct that we were forced into war and most Americans were isolationist, but FDR and his administration were not. When the fighting started, policy makers realized they could take advantage of the conflict in order to increase the American empire. Many historians argue US foreign policy has been about economic expansion (another term for imperialism) at least since Woodrow Wilson’s time.

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Posted: 04 July 2017 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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America intervened in WW2 ultimately for economic reasons. Partly because Japan and Germany’s military activities were disruptive to American economic interests overseas, but also to continue the Wilsonian doctrine of America replacing the waning European empires. The goal was to bring the lands which used to be under European control into the American sphere of influence. You could argue some good came of it, but it was mostly detrimental to the world. We didn’t fight for self-defence - neither Germany or Japan was a military threat to the USA - they didn’t have the logistics or manpower - though Japan was the more immediate (small) danger. We didn’t fight to rid the world of fascism or racism - even if that was a motive, we clearly failed. And we didn’t play the biggest role in defeating Germany…..that was the Soviet Union.

What do they call Americans who are such staunch defenders of Russia?

Russians…

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Posted: 04 July 2017 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Beltane - 30 May 2017 09:51 PM

And we didn’t play the biggest role in defeating Germany…..that was the Soviet Union.  

The Soviet Union also played the largest role in making WW II happen.

There would have been no massive military if the Soviet Union hadn’t provided bases and resources from almost the end of WW I till the mid 1930s for the German military and defence industry to train and do R&D.

http:// http://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Military-Soviet-Union

And without the Stalin-Hitler pact in August of 1939 WW II never would have begun. There were two aggressors that began the war, Hitler and Stalin. Stalin being the snake he was waited two weeks to send his troops into Poland so that Hitler could take all the blame. He then went on to invade and annex the Baltic states, Bessarabia and attacked and seized the southern regions of Finland which left that nation totally exposed to further invasion any time Stalin felt like.

And right up till the day that the Nazis began pouring into the USSR - across the new border which was in the middle of what used to be Poland - freight trains carrying massive amounts of Soviet oil, grain, rubber, strategic metals and more fed the German war machine that was killing thousands in western Europe. Stalin didn’t give a damn about us until his partner in crime turned on him then he demanded we save his ass.

And while the Soviet Union most of the ground fighting it never faced more than a fraction of the Luftwaffe, most of which was eventually deployed in the west to face down the powerful Allied air forces. 300,000 Allied airmen lost their lives in part fighting to relieve the pressure on an “ally” that just a short time before was helping the tyrant that was trying to annihilate them.

Like I said, the only people so passionate about asserting just how incredible Russia is are Russians.

So the same jerks who think they just stole our government are now trying to do the same with our history.

spamblock line

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Posted: 05 July 2017 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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DougC - 04 July 2017 07:14 PM

But America also has mechanisms to control those elements or I wouldn’t be sitting in an independent nation to the north.

We haven’t conquered Canada yes?  Still?  Gosh, I’m sorry, our bad.  I’ll have someone get on that right away.  But wait a second, I remember why now.  Yea, that’s it, we don’t want to contaminate America with you darn Canadians, and the reason should be obvious.  You guys are sane, you just wouldn’t fit in. 

The Normandy landings were carried out by nations with relatively free press and the public had wide access to information. The USSR on the other hand was a closed society under a brutal dictatorship that severely punished free thought and did not allow a free press.

I think the problem was that Russia became the enemy shortly after WWII, and we didn’t want to give them credit for anything.  Thus, our understanding of history has been distorted, and folks like Beltane would be correct in pointing out such things.

The British did colonize many places, I live in a former British colony. And there were negative aspects of this, but there is still pride on the part of many nations that they were part of this empire or the Commonwealth wouldn’t exist.

Holy crap, now I remember, you’re the people who INVADED US in 1812!!! 

Americans fought brutal wars against different groups, how does this make them different than other nations.

It doesn’t, so maybe we should spend less time pretending we are so very different, as Beltane might remark.

The “genocide” of native Americans for instance took place in the context of brutal attacks by natives on the civilian population.

Whoa, me and Beltane are gonna have to kick your butt now.  That is, scalp you.  BTW, there’s a great documentary series on either Amazon or Netflix that covers the entire history of American/Indian relations.  Very educational.  We already know the general story, but digging in to all the details is quite sobering.

Claiming that the US went into WW II just take over the world is not factual.

Agreed.  We inherited the world after everybody else bombed themselves in to ruin. 

It wasn’t even prepared for the war, in 1939 its army was outmatched by Portugal. It was forced into a war against its wishes and the interests of most of its population that wanted nothing to do with the war. It was attacked by one militaristic dictatorship and had war declared on it by another. How the hell does that equate with Roosevelt wanting to take over the world as beltane claims?

Beltane is just being dramatic, attempting to strike the bold rebel pose.  Let’s cut him some slack perhaps, he’s only been an adult a couple of years, and none of us were born knowing everything.  But still, yes, his points have to be refuted, agreed.

Kind of doubt that, his worldview is completely formed - as f….. up as it is - and he doesn’t give a crap what anyone else has to present. He’s told you exactly that in this thread.

Well, if true, his problem.

Some of the trends are there, but we have a choice in whether or not to repeat the past.

Um, maybe we have a choice.  If we truly had such choices, war would not be a reliably persistent reality of the human condition.

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Countdown To Zero - Nuclear Weapons Documentary

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Posted: 05 July 2017 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Tanny - 05 July 2017 04:51 AM
DougC - 04 July 2017 07:14 PM

But America also has mechanisms to control those elements or I wouldn’t be sitting in an independent nation to the north.

We haven’t conquered Canada yes?  Still?  Gosh, I’m sorry, our bad.  I’ll have someone get on that right away.  But wait a second, I remember why now.  Yea, that’s it, we don’t want to contaminate America with you darn Canadians, and the reason should be obvious.  You guys are sane, you just wouldn’t fit in. 

The Normandy landings were carried out by nations with relatively free press and the public had wide access to information. The USSR on the other hand was a closed society under a brutal dictatorship that severely punished free thought and did not allow a free press.

I think the problem was that Russia became the enemy shortly after WWII, and we didn’t want to give them credit for anything.  Thus, our understanding of history has been distorted, and folks like Beltane would be correct in pointing out such things.

The British did colonize many places, I live in a former British colony. And there were negative aspects of this, but there is still pride on the part of many nations that they were part of this empire or the Commonwealth wouldn’t exist.

Holy crap, now I remember, you’re the people who INVADED US in 1812!!! 

Americans fought brutal wars against different groups, how does this make them different than other nations.

It doesn’t, so maybe we should spend less time pretending we are so very different, as Beltane might remark.

The “genocide” of native Americans for instance took place in the context of brutal attacks by natives on the civilian population.

Whoa, me and Beltane are gonna have to kick your butt now.  That is, scalp you.  BTW, there’s a great documentary series on either Amazon or Netflix that covers the entire history of American/Indian relations.  Very educational.  We already know the general story, but digging in to all the details is quite sobering.

Claiming that the US went into WW II just take over the world is not factual.

Agreed.  We inherited the world after everybody else bombed themselves in to ruin. 

It wasn’t even prepared for the war, in 1939 its army was outmatched by Portugal. It was forced into a war against its wishes and the interests of most of its population that wanted nothing to do with the war. It was attacked by one militaristic dictatorship and had war declared on it by another. How the hell does that equate with Roosevelt wanting to take over the world as beltane claims?

Beltane is just being dramatic, attempting to strike the bold rebel pose.  Let’s cut him some slack perhaps, he’s only been an adult a couple of years, and none of us were born knowing everything.  But still, yes, his points have to be refuted, agreed.

Kind of doubt that, his worldview is completely formed - as f….. up as it is - and he doesn’t give a crap what anyone else has to present. He’s told you exactly that in this thread.

Well, if true, his problem.

Some of the trends are there, but we have a choice in whether or not to repeat the past.

Um, maybe we have a choice.  If we truly had such choices, war would not be a reliably persistent reality of the human condition.

Just a different approach to saying F.U.

If you’re not here to actually discuss things then cancelling you out is as easy as hitting the ignore button. Bye bye

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Posted: 05 July 2017 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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these a-holes are about as American as my balalaika… or trump as president.

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Posted: 05 July 2017 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Beltane - 04 July 2017 09:56 PM

You’re correct that we were forced into war and most Americans were isolationist, but FDR and his administration were not. When the fighting started, policy makers realized they could take advantage of the conflict in order to increase the American empire. Many historians argue US foreign policy has been about economic expansion (another term for imperialism) at least since Woodrow Wilson’s time.

 
Your information is in line with history. I might add, that before Japan went to Hawaii and we went to war in Europe. FDR’s guy that was making money policies was Harry D. White, who worked for Henry Morgenthau Jr. Mr. White has been left out of history for the most part and is just now being rewritten about his actions.  Mr. White was in talks with Germany as to how to feed and bankroll the none German countries after the war. Germany wanted the Mark to be the world’s safe-haven currency. And our bankers wanted the dollar to be the safe-haven currency. Remember the Mark was not popular because of the super hyper-inflation it had experienced.
 
As soon as the USA entered the war in Europe the money started moving out of Germany. The stock markets around the world started moving up on German stocks because it was known the end of the war was in the works. What was going on in the banking world and stock markets was the opposite of what was happening in the political world. Germany was winning wars and gaining land. Yet it’s leaders were moving wealth to places like South America.

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Posted: 05 July 2017 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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People who go endlessly about how terrible America is and how wonderful Russia is are doing it for a reason that has nothing to do with the facts.

Trump is an obvious expression of this.

There’s a reason these passionate supporters of Russia are also strong supporters of Trump… it’s the same damn thing.

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Posted: 06 July 2017 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Beltane - 04 July 2017 09:18 PM
Tanny - 04 July 2017 05:59 PM

Beltane has a little germ of truth that he’s attempting to inflate way beyond reason and facts.

As example, many Americans probably think the Germans were defeated by the invasion of Normandy.  There is mythology like this that needs to be debunked.  The Russian role in defeating the Nazis is dramatically under reported in Western culture.  The English were long time colonizers who hoped to keep their ruthless empire alive.  Americans have been guilty of genocide and centuries of slavery.  There are all kinds of things like this that are factual and worth reporting.

It appears that Beltane has only been an adult for a few years, and so he’s still working on sorting out what needs to be debunked and what’s real and valid about such events.  At least he knows what WWII was and has some information about it, which many his age may not be able to say.

We’re approaching a moment in history when every single person who lived through WWII will be gone.  And whaddya know, just as that happens many of the same trends of the 1930s are again raising their ugly heads.  Just when we most need the “Greatest Generation” they pull the plug and vanish.  So rude!  grin

Lel, nothing is being inflated.

Everything I’ve said is accurate and easily found in history books. If you have other information which proves me wrong I’d like to see it.


We can thank Russia for the downfall of the Christian loving sweet baby Jesus Nazis

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Posted: 06 July 2017 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Beltane - 04 July 2017 09:56 PM
DougC - 04 July 2017 07:14 PM

Claiming that the US went into WW II just take over the world is not factual. It wasn’t even prepared for the war, in 1939 its army was outmatched by Portugal. It was forced into a war against its wishes and the interests of most of its population that wanted nothing to do with the war. It was attacked by one militaristic dictatorship and had war declared on it by another. How the hell does that equate with Roosevelt wanting to take over the world as beltane claims?

I didn’t claim America intervened in order to “take over the world”, here is what I said:

America intervened in WW2 ultimately for economic reasons. Partly because Japan and Germany’s military activities were disruptive to American economic interests overseas, but also to continue the Wilsonian doctrine of America replacing the waning European empires. The goal was to bring the lands which used to be under European control into the American sphere of influence.

And that’s exactly what we did. That’s why we pursued the policies we did. The proof is in American foreign policy of the post-war era.

You’re correct that we were forced into war and most Americans were isolationist, but FDR and his administration were not. When the fighting started, policy makers realized they could take advantage of the conflict in order to increase the American empire. Many historians argue US foreign policy has been about economic expansion (another term for imperialism) at least since Woodrow Wilson’s time.

America intervened when it saw communism was not defeated by the Nazis and in turn saw the Nazis as a threat to empire in their capitalist world

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