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What caused God to create the Universe?
Posted: 03 June 2017 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]
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The Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is used by theists very frequently to prove God’s existence. It has been modified by different theologians from time to time. The latest one being :

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe begin to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of existence.

Lot number of papers and articles has been presented by different philosophers in refutation of this argument. I will try to examine this argument from my point of view :

Premise 1 & 2 : Theologians love to quote the Big Bang theory to support Premise 1 & 2. But at the same time, they forget that both cause and effect are function of time and has no meaning outside space-time. As per the theory, Both space and time came into the picture with the big bang. Claiming that God caused the beginning of universe through big bang is totally nonsensical, as, creation is an action, and action itself is a function of time. Therefore, there cannot be an action which is out of time.

Secondly, the universe is 13 billion years old and our earth is only 5 billion years old (approximate data). Now, if dealing with earth and its human beings were the only purpose of creation, what was God waiting for the rest of 8 billion years? What is the reason behind creation of millions of stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets, and other astrophysical entities, which is totally useless and adds no impact to our life? After the earth will die off (with the death of our sun), the universe will still be there. What will God do for rest of the time, until Big Crunch occurs? Are heaven and hell a part of universe? If yes, they will also cease to exist with the universe along with the Big Crunch, and the concept of them existing for eternity would fail. If heaven and hell are not a part of universe, then, quoting Big Bang theory to support the cosmological argument is pointless, as, heaven and hell as places, and there cannot be any place which is not a part of space.

Premise 3 :  Let us, for argument sake, we assume that God caused the big bang. But then the question arise, why? God was there always, since eternity. What suddenly came in his mind that he will to create the universe with, humans, angels, demons, hell, heaven, etc? What was the cause that effected God to break his stability and act (in order to create the universe)?  What “caused” God that became the cause for creation?

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Posted: 03 June 2017 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 03 June 2017 09:24 AM

The Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is used by theists very frequently to prove God’s existence. It has been modified by different theologians from time to time. The latest one being :

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe begin to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of existence.

Lot number of papers and articles has been presented by different philosophers in refutation of this argument. I will try to examine this argument from my point of view :

Premise 1 & 2 : Theologians love to quote the Big Bang theory to support Premise 1 & 2. But at the same time, they forget that both cause and effect are function of time and has no meaning outside space-time. As per the theory, Both space and time came into the picture with the big bang. Claiming that God caused the beginning of universe through big bang is totally nonsensical, as, creation is an action, and action itself is a function of time. Therefore, there cannot be an action which is out of time.

Secondly, the universe is 13 billion years old and our earth is only 5 billion years old (approximate data). Now, if dealing with earth and its human beings were the only purpose of creation, what was God waiting for the rest of 8 billion years? What is the reason behind creation of millions of stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets, and other astrophysical entities, which is totally useless and adds no impact to our life? After the earth will die off (with the death of our sun), the universe will still be there. What will God do for rest of the time, until Big Crunch occurs? Are heaven and hell a part of universe? If yes, they will also cease to exist with the universe along with the Big Crunch, and the concept of them existing for eternity would fail. If heaven and hell are not a part of universe, then, quoting Big Bang theory to support the cosmological argument is pointless, as, heaven and hell as places, and there cannot be any place which is not a part of space.

Premise 3 :  Let us, for argument sake, we assume that God caused the big bang. But then the question arise, why? God was there always, since eternity. What suddenly came in his mind that he will to create the universe with, humans, angels, demons, hell, heaven, etc? What was the cause that effected God to break his stability and act (in order to create the universe)?  What “caused” God that became the cause for creation?


God must work in mysterious ways. Maybe it was a slow week and he was bored.

[ Edited: 21 June 2017 07:00 AM by LoisL ]
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Posted: 03 June 2017 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Their is no deity that created anything because there is no deity.  Get over yourself.

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Posted: 03 June 2017 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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The universe is a failed physics experiment. Some grad student in another universe overloaded his matter containment field and bang, here we are.

Edit: Seriously, anyone who wants to use this argument needs to prove Premise 1. Until then this argument is a nonstarter. No need for the rest of the reasoning you used. It just opens doors for Creationaists to lead the discussion down rabbit holes.

[ Edited: 03 June 2017 04:09 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 05 June 2017 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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This seems appropriate for the thread:

There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody’s expense but his own.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

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Posted: 07 June 2017 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 03 June 2017 09:24 AM

The Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is used by theists very frequently to prove God’s existence. It has been modified by different theologians from time to time. The latest one being :

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe begin to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of existence.

Lot number of papers and articles has been presented by different philosophers in refutation of this argument. I will try to examine this argument from my point of view :

Premise 1 & 2 : Theologians love to quote the Big Bang theory to support Premise 1 & 2. But at the same time, they forget that both cause and effect are function of time and has no meaning outside space-time. As per the theory, Both space and time came into the picture with the big bang. Claiming that God caused the beginning of universe through big bang is totally nonsensical, as, creation is an action, and action itself is a function of time. Therefore, there cannot be an action which is out of time.

Secondly, the universe is 13 billion years old and our earth is only 5 billion years old (approximate data). Now, if dealing with earth and its human beings were the only purpose of creation, what was God waiting for the rest of 8 billion years? What is the reason behind creation of millions of stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets, and other astrophysical entities, which is totally useless and adds no impact to our life? After the earth will die off (with the death of our sun), the universe will still be there. What will God do for rest of the time, until Big Crunch occurs? Are heaven and hell a part of universe? If yes, they will also cease to exist with the universe along with the Big Crunch, and the concept of them existing for eternity would fail. If heaven and hell are not a part of universe, then, quoting Big Bang theory to support the cosmological argument is pointless, as, heaven and hell as places, and there cannot be any place which is not a part of space.

Premise 3 :  Let us, for argument sake, we assume that God caused the big bang. But then the question arise, why? God was there always, since eternity. What suddenly came in his mind that he will to create the universe with, humans, angels, demons, hell, heaven, etc? What was the cause that effected God to break his stability and act (in order to create the universe)?  What “caused” God that became the cause for creation?

I appreciate that you’re at least trying to be rational. The main problem with any of these so called arguments is that those making them already presume a definition of terms that others don’t agree with. Of course the main undefined term is god. Nobody can define that to the point where everyone can agree.

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Posted: 07 June 2017 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 03 June 2017 09:24 AM

Premise 3 :  Let us, for argument sake, we assume that God caused the big bang. But then the question arise, why? God was there always, since eternity. What suddenly came in his mind that he will to create the universe with, humans, angels, demons, hell, heaven, etc? What was the cause that effected God to break his stability and act (in order to create the universe)?

Boredom and loneliness. God allegedly created man in his image, so think about how you would feel sitting around with no time or space, no one to talk to, and no Miles Davis playing in the background. I know I’d get bored. The problem Yahweh ran into is creating the universe takes teamwork. If he’d been smart Yahweh would have created some project planners, cosmologists, theoretical physicists, biologists, botanists, ad infinitum. But maybe he couldn’t. Project planning takes time and there is no time outside the universe. So maybe old Yahweh had to create the universe without expert help. That would explain a lot, especially the part about the universe trying to kill us.

What “caused” God that became the cause for creation?

That’s a separate question. Good luck getting a rational answer to that one.

Here is the obligatory random sentence to attempt getting through the spam filter.

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Posted: 21 June 2017 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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// Here is the obligatory random sentence to attempt getting through the spam filter. //

DarronS. Sir, I did not get this. Please explain.

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Posted: 21 June 2017 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Simple question, with a simple answer. “GOD” common factor is “knowledge” or control of some sort of knowledge. Add to the human gene reaction of wanting to have knowledge on all subjects whether right or wrong. And you end up with hundreds of stories about gods creating the universe.

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Posted: 21 June 2017 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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And of all the gods worshiped on Earth you are in reference to which one?

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Posted: 23 June 2017 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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deros - 21 June 2017 02:50 PM

And of all the gods worshiped on Earth you are in reference to which one?

Of course, one is to assume the one and only god. But, in the OT Genesis it starts off with three different gods if one does the research before the translations into the King James version. I believe there are eleven gods used in the OT and NT alone.

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Posted: 02 July 2017 01:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 03 June 2017 09:24 AM

The Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is used by theists very frequently to prove God’s existence. It has been modified by different theologians from time to time. The latest one being :

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe begin to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of existence.

Lot number of papers and articles has been presented by different philosophers in refutation of this argument. I will try to examine this argument from my point of view :

Premise 1 & 2 : Theologians love to quote the Big Bang theory to support Premise 1 & 2. But at the same time, they forget that both cause and effect are function of time and has no meaning outside space-time. As per the theory, Both space and time came into the picture with the big bang. Claiming that God caused the beginning of universe through big bang is totally nonsensical, as, creation is an action, and action itself is a function of time. Therefore, there cannot be an action which is out of time.

Secondly, the universe is 13 billion years old and our earth is only 5 billion years old (approximate data). Now, if dealing with earth and its human beings were the only purpose of creation, what was God waiting for the rest of 8 billion years? What is the reason behind creation of millions of stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets, and other astrophysical entities, which is totally useless and adds no impact to our life? After the earth will die off (with the death of our sun), the universe will still be there. What will God do for rest of the time, until Big Crunch occurs? Are heaven and hell a part of universe? If yes, they will also cease to exist with the universe along with the Big Crunch, and the concept of them existing for eternity would fail. If heaven and hell are not a part of universe, then, quoting Big Bang theory to support the cosmological argument is pointless, as, heaven and hell as places, and there cannot be any place which is not a part of space.

Premise 3 :  Let us, for argument sake, we assume that God caused the big bang. But then the question arise, why? God was there always, since eternity. What suddenly came in his mind that he will to create the universe with, humans, angels, demons, hell, heaven, etc? What was the cause that effected God to break his stability and act (in order to create the universe)?  What “caused” God that became the cause for creation?

It may be that time, as we know it, is not a fundamental part of the universe. Perhaps what we experience as time is just the way we get through life in terms of our perceptions and thought processes. So I guess what I’m saying is that time is nothing more than a surface feature of something much deeper and it is only because we are constantly perceiving it that we have assumed it is a fundamental element of reality. There is a bit of evidence to suggest spacetime is just one level of a deeper reality when we look at the behavior of entangled particles which seem in instant touch with one another, given the right conditions. Perhaps time only becomes an issue for macro objects like us and planets, etc. I can’t prove any of this of course.

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Posted: 02 July 2017 05:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 03 June 2017 09:24 AM

The Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is used by theists very frequently to prove God’s existence.

If there is anything the scale of a God, it seems entirely unlikely that something as incredibly small and half insane as human beings could figure it out.  Such an attempt seems a lot like an amoeba trying to analyze federal tax policy. 

Seen from this perspective, all arguments on all sides of the question are declared to be silly.  Both parties to this endlessly repetitive merry-go-round to nowhere are seen to be partners in a shared fantasy, a notion that we are qualified even to ask good questions, let alone find meaningful answers.

Here’s an example.  Both parties to this debate are united in assuming that a God either exists or doesn’t exist, one or the other.  This assumption is rarely questioned by anyone. But watch…

When we observe reality, what do we see?  The vast majority of reality is space, the void, a nothing (relative nothing for the sticklers) and this area can be reasonably said to have properties of both existence AND non-existence.  There is “something” between the Earth and Moon, or they would be one.  But that “something” is typically described as being a “nothing”.

I’m not attempting to start a physics debate, and would propose that would be pointless too, given how little science really knows about the nature of reality at this point. 

What I am attempting to do is illustrate how easy it is to punch huge holes in the fundamental assumptions the God debate is built upon.  That is, we don’t even know how to ask useful questions, so what’s the point of arguing over fantasy answers offered by either theists or atheists?

The meaningful question, in my bloviating opinion, is…

Human beings are VERY VERY VERY interested in the question, but utterly incapable of arriving at an answer.  What are rational responses to being in that situation?  How might such an inquiry be advanced once we’ve swept both reason and faith off the table?

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Posted: 02 July 2017 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 21 June 2017 06:14 AM

// Here is the obligatory random sentence to attempt getting through the spam filter. //

DarronS. Sir, I did not get this. Please explain.

The spam filter seems to have corrected itself. The last several times I have edited one of my posts, the edited version went through without any extra sentence at the bottom or other tricks.  I asked Dougsmith if he had fixed it and he said, no, there was no way he could have fixed it because he has no access to the spam filter but possibly an update went through on the plug in. You might try to edit a post and see if it works for you as it did for me.

Lois

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Posted: 05 July 2017 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Yogi Yugpurush - 21 June 2017 06:14 AM

// Here is the obligatory random sentence to attempt getting through the spam filter. //

DarronS. Sir, I did not get this. Please explain.

Inside joke, we have a specter haunting this place.

Really.

Stick around it’ll get you too.    shock

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Posted: 05 July 2017 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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LoisL - 02 July 2017 12:23 PM
Yogi Yugpurush - 21 June 2017 06:14 AM

// Here is the obligatory random sentence to attempt getting through the spam filter. //

DarronS. Sir, I did not get this. Please explain.

The spam filter seems to have corrected itself. The last several times I have edited one of my posts, the edited version went through without any extra sentence at the bottom or other tricks.  I asked Dougsmith if he had fixed it and he said, no, there was no way he could have fixed it because he has no access to the spam filter but possibly an update went through on the plug in. You might try to edit a post and see if it works for you as it did for me.

Lois

I thought it was DougC’s invocation keeping it at bay.  Just wait till Jupiter leaves the house of Porrima, all hell will break loose again.  smile

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