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What caused God to create the Universe?
Posted: 07 July 2017 04:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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webplodder - 06 July 2017 10:51 PM

Well, we have to remember that whatever we see, hear, touch, taste, etc., it needs to pass through our ‘perceptual filters, which means whatever causes such perceptions ends up being ‘processed’ by our biology and presents itself to us as ‘reality.’

I covered that. And you don’t need to go find aliens. Creatures right here on earth perceive things differently than we do.

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Posted: 07 July 2017 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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webplodder - 06 July 2017 10:38 PM

Well, even if we progress over the years and become incredibly knowledgeable, scientifically speaking, we will still essentially be in the same position as we are today inasmuch as not being able to answer where the universe originally came from. I’m not talking here about our spacetime universe that we are all familiar with but the universe in its widest sense, encompassing all the previous incarnations of the universe and, indeed, all the future possible ones. The point I’m making, I suppose, is that whenever we manage to answer one question we are presented with a whole bunch of others, so we never get to finally answer the question.

I generally agree with you on the above.

In the end all we can do is hold a faith that somehow this has all been created by an unknowable force and leave it at that.

We don’t actually need faith at all.  We can simply say the truth that we don’t know.  And then, should we still be interested, we can proceed to explore what value might be found in that which we actually have, our ignorance.

There is no requirement to come to any kind of answer, and it’s logical not to do so given, as you say, the vast extent of our ignorance. 

What color socks am I wearing?  You don’t resort to faith in addressing this question, you simply admit you have no idea.

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Posted: 07 July 2017 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Lausten - 07 July 2017 04:21 AM
webplodder - 06 July 2017 10:51 PM

Well, we have to remember that whatever we see, hear, touch, taste, etc., it needs to pass through our ‘perceptual filters, which means whatever causes such perceptions ends up being ‘processed’ by our biology and presents itself to us as ‘reality.’

I covered that. And you don’t need to go find aliens. Creatures right here on earth perceive things differently than we do.

You, got that right! grin

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Posted: 07 July 2017 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Tanny - 07 July 2017 05:43 AM

You don’t resort to faith in addressing this question, you simply admit you have no idea.

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Posted: 07 July 2017 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Just an idea. Knowledge is not the making of a Christian god. Knowledge should cover a broad spectrum of the subject being analyzed. Before there were deities and the written word, the gods said that earth was made from star dust and star dust was made from matter. And everything in the universe was made from matter. How the universe came to be, mankind may never know. Making this one of the oldest puzzles of thought known to mankind. We can only guess at how old these stories passed down from pre-history are. The question on the table for the last decade was not how was the universe made, but are there more than one universe?
 
Instead of looking for aliens. One should be asking, if the old stories are saying that today’s humans were domesticated (created), then who were the gods that created modern humans. Today’s thinking is that H. floresiensis derived from an early Indonesian H. erectus, which is currently accepted for expansion out of Africa. New hypothesis is coming out every few years now. One is saying that Homo erectus evolved around the same time as Home habilis. This suggests Homo floresiensis was a “sister species” of Homo habilis and the two likely shared a common ancestor. One big question today is did Homo erectua pekinensis descendants and fellow members of the species of Homo erectus die out or evolved into the modern species.
 
The point is that in the next decade we might have the questions.
Did modern humans evolve or were they domesticated?
Was the knowledge of evolving ancestors hyperthymesia?
 
The old pre-history stories talk about the problems of overpopulation, plagues and natural disasters. But no talk of wars or deities. Therefore, it is quite possible that with the control of knowledge by the deities came wars. Point being, if the religious entities with deities in the world went away, would the need for wars also disappear? You could still have religion and afterlife, just take away the deities, like it way in the past.
 
The deities do two major tasks. One is they control all knowledge. Two is they judge you. Without deities would the nations get along better? That does not seem to be the case in countries like Pakistan and India where there are still religions based upon the roots of the old pre-history religions. This gives more weight to the need to review the hyperthymesia hypothesis.

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Posted: 07 July 2017 09:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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MikeYohe - 07 July 2017 12:12 PM

Point being, if the religious entities with deities in the world went away, would the need for wars also disappear?

First you got to get past the first reason people have wars - to take what some other people have.

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Posted: 07 July 2017 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 07 July 2017 09:21 PM
MikeYohe - 07 July 2017 12:12 PM

Point being, if the religious entities with deities in the world went away, would the need for wars also disappear?

First you got to get past the first reason people have wars - to take what some other people have.

Darwinian evolution and Natural selection already starts at the molecular level. A war which tends to absorb smaller structures into larger structures, as explained by Hazen in his lecture from Carnegie Institute of sciences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlAQLgTwJ_A  (start viewing at 25:10 to avoid the lengthy introduction)

At larger scales we could use Gravity as a form of natural warfare, drawing in and absorbing smaller objects into the larger more massive structure.

As Hellstrom explained this analogy when applied to living organisms;  “for life to exist, life must die”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8UN9zGD04&list=PLOd8HJhLiHIwhP65eYlAOovD4R61hGDJ1

p.s. The OP ask if God created the univers(es) past present and future, IOW, the wholeness of all that ever was, is , and will be.,How then can the question that yet a greater a priori power could have existed prior to this definitive statement.

The question is a contradiction of terms to begin with. The question itself is just illogical self-contradictory nonsensical garbage from the onset.

[ Edited: 07 July 2017 10:23 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 07 July 2017 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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@ CC,

I was pleasantly surprised by your mention and link to that excellent site of fractals in nature. It’s now in my favorites library.

The Fractal function has been one of my main areas of interest for a long time. This universal function seems to go all the way down to the very fabric of spacetime.

Have you checked out CDT (causal dynamical triangulation) yet?
If not, here is a small excerpt

Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, and popularized by Fotini Markopoulou and Lee Smolin, is an approach to quantum gravity that like loop quantum gravity is background independent.
This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

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Posted: 08 July 2017 02:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Tanny - 07 July 2017 05:43 AM
webplodder - 06 July 2017 10:38 PM

Well, even if we progress over the years and become incredibly knowledgeable, scientifically speaking, we will still essentially be in the same position as we are today inasmuch as not being able to answer where the universe originally came from. I’m not talking here about our spacetime universe that we are all familiar with but the universe in its widest sense, encompassing all the previous incarnations of the universe and, indeed, all the future possible ones. The point I’m making, I suppose, is that whenever we manage to answer one question we are presented with a whole bunch of others, so we never get to finally answer the question.

I generally agree with you on the above.

In the end all we can do is hold a faith that somehow this has all been created by an unknowable force and leave it at that.

We don’t actually need faith at all.  We can simply say the truth that we don’t know.  And then, should we still be interested, we can proceed to explore what value might be found in that which we actually have, our ignorance.

There is no requirement to come to any kind of answer, and it’s logical not to do so given, as you say, the vast extent of our ignorance. 

What color socks am I wearing?  You don’t resort to faith in addressing this question, you simply admit you have no idea.

I take your point, but there seems to be something in human beings, at least some human beings, that needs to find some kind of answer to what it is all about. Science has done great at explaining why things are the way they are but science cannot answer everything. I think it is our spiritual need to find answers that drives all this.

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Posted: 08 July 2017 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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MikeYohe - 07 July 2017 10:56 AM
Lausten - 07 July 2017 04:21 AM
webplodder - 06 July 2017 10:51 PM

Well, we have to remember that whatever we see, hear, touch, taste, etc., it needs to pass through our ‘perceptual filters, which means whatever causes such perceptions ends up being ‘processed’ by our biology and presents itself to us as ‘reality.’

I covered that. And you don’t need to go find aliens. Creatures right here on earth perceive things differently than we do.

You, got that right! grin

Sure, but we only have one ‘tree of life’ model for this planet, based on DNA. For all I know there might lifeforms out there that derive from a different tree of life and be radically different from life on earth.

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Posted: 08 July 2017 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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webplodder - 08 July 2017 02:47 AM

I take your point, but there seems to be something in human beings, at least some human beings, that needs to find some kind of answer to what it is all about.

Yes, I agree of course. 

INQUIRY: We have an inquiry in to the largest of subjects.

METHODOLOGY:  And we have a common methodology, a search for “The Answer”, that is, AN attempt to create a conceptual object which accurately describes the largest of subjects.

After thousands of years of applying this methodology to this inquiry, we have little evidence it’s getting us anywhere.  As it has been from the very beginning, some people believe in God, some don’t, while others aren’t sure.  Nothing has really changed.

So if we are to reason, we have to face this evidence.  If we are to reason, we don’t have the option of just wishing it away.  And so we arrive at a crossroads.

Which is more important to us, the inquiry, or the methodology?

If we answer the inquiry, then it seems time to abandon a methodology with a very long history of failure, and try something else.

If we answer the methodology, then it seems time to abandon this inquiry and proceed to some other inquiry where this methodology has proven useful.

The least rational choice would be to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, which Einstein declared to be the definition of insanity.

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Posted: 08 July 2017 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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You aren’t going to find an answer if you can’t even formulate the question. Unless you find 42 satisfying.

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Posted: 08 July 2017 06:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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MikeYohe - 07 July 2017 12:12 PM

Just an idea. Knowledge is not the making of a Christian god. Knowledge should cover a broad spectrum of the subject being analyzed. Before there were deities and the written word, the gods said that earth was made from star dust and star dust was made from matter. And everything in the universe was made from matter. How the universe came to be, mankind may never know. Making this one of the oldest puzzles of thought known to mankind. We can only guess at how old these stories passed down from pre-history are. The question on the table for the last decade was not how was the universe made, but are there more than one universe?
 
Instead of looking for aliens. One should be asking, if the old stories are saying that today’s humans were domesticated (created), then who were the gods that created modern humans. Today’s thinking is that H. floresiensis derived from an early Indonesian H. erectus, which is currently accepted for expansion out of Africa. New hypothesis is coming out every few years now. One is saying that Homo erectus evolved around the same time as Home habilis. This suggests Homo floresiensis was a “sister species” of Homo habilis and the two likely shared a common ancestor. One big question today is did Homo erectua pekinensis descendants and fellow members of the species of Homo erectus die out or evolved into the modern species.
 
The point is that in the next decade we might have the questions.
Did modern humans evolve or were they domesticated?
Was the knowledge of evolving ancestors hyperthymesia?
 
The old pre-history stories talk about the problems of overpopulation, plagues and natural disasters. But no talk of wars or deities. Therefore, it is quite possible that with the control of knowledge by the deities came wars. Point being, if the religious entities with deities in the world went away, would the need for wars also disappear? You could still have religion and afterlife, just take away the deities, like it way in the past.
 
The deities do two major tasks. One is they control all knowledge. Two is they judge you. Without deities would the nations get along better? That does not seem to be the case in countries like Pakistan and India where there are still religions based upon the roots of the old pre-history religions. This gives more weight to the need to review the hyperthymesia hypothesis.

I would argue the opposite is true. Communal memory has caused thousands of years of wars, especially in those counntries or societies with long hyperthymesia, such as feuds that last for generations.

OTOH, when one is given the opportunity to change one’s mind hyperthymedia tends to fade.

As the saying goes, “with time painful memories fade , but the happy memories remain”. I’ take that kind of hyperthymesia anytime.

Personally I have seen and experienced emotional pain, but now I am happy just to be alive and still remain lucid in thought and appreciation for the arts, the great advancement of communication, which allows me to converse and change ideas with other keen or more knowledgeable minds.

There is nothing more tragic than to see someone you love descend into a state of oblivion and lose the one ability that sets them apart from all other species. But then comfort can be found in the knowledge that in their prime, they contributed to humanity in meaningful ways. Their legacy of having contributed to the happiness of others, remains a lasting example and satisfaction to have known them.

Without the experience of unhappiness, we would not know the experience of happiness. All emotional experiences are relative to one’s environment.

As the signature of one of the contributors to this forum states: “in order to see the light one must have seen the darkness” I believe it is an exceprt from a movie.

[ Edited: 08 July 2017 06:40 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 08 July 2017 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 07 July 2017 09:21 PM
MikeYohe - 07 July 2017 12:12 PM

Point being, if the religious entities with deities in the world went away, would the need for wars also disappear?

First you got to get past the first reason people have wars - to take what some other people have.

I don’t see this on the people level. What did our people in WWI and WWII bring home as far as value to them?

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Posted: 08 July 2017 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Tanny - 08 July 2017 04:51 AM
webplodder - 08 July 2017 02:47 AM

I take your point, but there seems to be something in human beings, at least some human beings, that needs to find some kind of answer to what it is all about.

Yes, I agree of course. 

INQUIRY: We have an inquiry in to the largest of subjects.

METHODOLOGY:  And we have a common methodology, a search for “The Answer”, that is, AN attempt to create a conceptual object which accurately describes the largest of subjects.

After thousands of years of applying this methodology to this inquiry, we have little evidence it’s getting us anywhere.  As it has been from the very beginning, some people believe in God, some don’t, while others aren’t sure.  Nothing has really changed.

So if we are to reason, we have to face this evidence.  If we are to reason, we don’t have the option of just wishing it away.  And so we arrive at a crossroads.

Which is more important to us, the inquiry, or the methodology?

If we answer the inquiry, then it seems time to abandon a methodology with a very long history of failure, and try something else.

If we answer the methodology, then it seems time to abandon this inquiry and proceed to some other inquiry where this methodology has proven useful.

The least rational choice would be to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, which Einstein declared to be the definition of insanity.

“As it has been from the very beginning”. What are you talking about? From the beginning of Deities? That is what 10,000 years. From the beginning of religion? That is 200,000 years. From the beginning of the white race, that is 12,000 years. 
You are right, change your Methodology. There has been no search of any substance for the answers you seek. Most research so far has been political or religious controlled research. Webplodder is right, there is something in the human beings driving this quest. It is called genes. It is one of the traits that defines humans. All animals have them and they control the behavior of species.
 
God creating the universe is nothing more than a con, driven by greed. History tells us that.

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