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Do Western Women Reveal Too Much of Their Body?
Posted: 07 September 2017 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:17 PM

round and round we go ...

webplodder - 14 July 2017 11:14 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:12 AM
webplodder - 14 July 2017 12:04 AM

You can look away from the lady, yes, but it’s already too late as the emotional impact of seeing a sexy lady has been registered.

Yeah a beautiful woman, especially provocatively dressed one, yes, the male mind registers beautiful sexy woman. 
Perhaps even occasionally a fleeting eye to eye passes between you and said goddess and damned that particularly cuties registers down in your body. 

Know what I do, and I suspect all healthy males do, enjoy the sensation of still being alive while moving along.
Its all a part of being a human and part of a vibrant community.


But then I’ve gone through life by entirely different code of ethics than I think you can imagine.

For instance here’s been a wonderful golden rule I formulated in my twenties and oh boy, lordie has it served me quite well these past decades.

“I don’t want anything from anyone that they don’t want to offer me.”
Living that attitude makes dust of all your anguished contrivances.

Take responsibility for yourself - stop expecting others to babysit you.

Very ethical. I applaud you.  grin

Yes I am a very ethical person!
What’s the deal with you? - In light of your comments here I simply can’t imagine the barrenness of your mindscape.

Webplodder what are your ethics like?
I ask because you sound more like a Misogynist than anything else.

Variety is beautiful.  Haven’t you heard humanity is a rainbow and women are wonderful in all their aspects   cheese


Don’t fall for the ‘misogynist’ label, laddie boy. Don’t you know women use this as a stick with which to beat men over the head with?

Women are great as rainbows, sure, but when it comes to men’s work…....naw.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 15 July 2017 08:51 PM
webplodder - 15 July 2017 03:58 AM

You see, by saying something like ‘it’s not the lady’s problem’ you endorse whatever way women choose to dress and I don’t think that’s fair because you are indulging women too much.

With all due respect to the rules of decorum, a healthy Fuk U to Webplodder, is in order.
It is fundamentally twisted to believe women are supposed to take your male-centric-personal _______ into consideration
when planning and going about her day.
(In all of my worldly interactions I’ve found woman can perfectly well think for themselves, they don’t need you or your ilk.)

Hopefully enough of them understand that rights aren’t given, they are taken.
And youz are all about taking away their rights.

Sounds like you believe woman are chattel to be ruled by clerical fiat, actually it’s just your own personal conviction
You are an enemy to woman, a crusader for some God you pretend to know, but who does not exist.

webplodder - 15 July 2017 03:58 AM

Women have the freedom to dress pretty much how they want but ...

BUT NOTHING ! 
I’d love you see you spout that line downtown around this college town -
‘Back the fuk off’ would be your polite warning from all sides.  Here you’d better abide by our etiquette, or expect your brand of sexism to elicit a strong and “memorable” responses.  Yeah, yeah, I know in some parts some get to kill their sisters, since they’re insecure and ass-*%@! enough to do it.

I’m sure glad I live in my neighborhood, a lot of the world sounds like pure hell these days.  It’s so sad, when I was a kid the world was a place to dream of adventuring and seeing -now so much has evolved into a horror show.  But what else can be expected when blind adherence on contrived dogma and a Profits Uber Alles mentality permeates every layer of business and society?  downer

Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 15 July 2017 06:13 PM

Who are you or me to endorse or not endorse whatever way women choose to dress? Women invite scorn due to their dress only in barbarian-majority countries and in barbarian ghettoes in civilized countries. How in the world does exercising freedom to dress anyway you want trample others’ freedom?

Sam, though I have strong disagreements with your perspective regarding somethings, it’s nice to know we are in full agreement about a few things,
well said.

Tell me, Citizenschallenge, did you have a difficult childhood? Did not your folks teach you how to behave in company?

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Posted: 07 September 2017 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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I would ask other question…

Why had God or Allah created us naked? Why we dont have fur which would cover our skin?

Is naked skin source of temptation? Yes it is.

I would like to hear an explanation why we should be subjected to this temptation, and why we have to fight it by covering the skin. Also which authority claimed whats enough or not enough.

And the very last question:
Who is more successful in fightning its own temptations? Man who forces woman to cover, or man who can control his desires?

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Posted: 07 September 2017 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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Offler - 07 September 2017 08:03 AM

I would ask other question…

Why had God or Allah created us naked? Why we dont have fur which would cover our skin?

Is naked skin source of temptation? Yes it is.

I would like to hear an explanation why we should be subjected to this temptation, and why we have to fight it by covering the skin. Also which authority claimed whats enough or not enough.

And the very last question:
Who is more successful in fightning its own temptations? Man who forces woman to cover, or man who can control his desires?

Nakedness is to be enjoyed between husband and wife and no others. The hijab is there for a reason.

We do not invite the Devil to tempt men. Doing so plays into his hands.

[ Edited: 07 September 2017 08:40 AM by webplodder ]
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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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webplodder - 07 September 2017 08:01 AM

Tell me, Citizenschallenge, did you have a difficult childhood? Did not your folks teach you how to behave in company?

Dude I had fantastic parents who opened my eyes to the amazing world around me.
As for behaving, though we were poor immigrant types, besides all the museums (back then they were free or very cheap) we were regularly packed away to,
we kids were taught at a young age how to clean up, dress up and behave.  Nothing like going to a real big city (Chicago) symphony, to bring out the class in kids,
even kids of the lower classes. Well, good old world parents, with consistent expectation and who could resort the rod (actually wood-spoon), nor abuse it, helped.  tongue wink

Guess, you’ve decided to ignore this - selective comprehension is another hideous trait of your type.

At least I have a healthy sense of self-skepticism and am willing to question and examine myself,
you from your words, seem to live in an absolutist world incapable of reexamining anything.

Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 30 August 2017 07:59 AM
webplodder - 30 August 2017 05:42 AM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 11 August 2017 02:46 PM
webplodder - 09 August 2017 11:18 PM
Beltane - 09 August 2017 11:23 AM

She is from Saudi Arabia, afaik.

Even more unforgivable then.

Saudi Arabia is uncivilized; so, she is unforgivable!! What jungle are you from, Mr./Ms. ‘webplodder’?

Depends what you call uncivilised. Is it civilised to go about in a sexually provocative way and then complain about women being ‘sexualized?’

Before complaining, about women ‘sexualizing’ themselves - open your eye’s and look to the media and advertising executives
and consider how they have and continue to sexualize everything and drive that culture.  Stop picking on the woman, sheople though many may be.

Besides there are more important things to get upset about than the mystery, wonder, and beauty of a woman’s body.

The silly comment ‘get a life’ seems somehow appropriate.
There’s another saying I heard just a couple days ago - “Don’t borrow someone else’s problems” that also seems to fit into this context.

Hey so what do you think about force feeding kids and adults Creationist nonsense? Just out of curious
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry.  We’re all products of our origins and nurturing environment and such.  I don’t know what you were raised in and if I were trapped into the same I’d probably be just as narrow minded.

Me, I’m a truly blessed individual.  Regarding my attitude towards woman, you must understand I was blessed with a wonderful mother and grandmother who opened my eyes to the beauty that surrounds me and kindled my unquenchable thirst for learning about this planet, society, evolution and the achievements of mankind.  Added on to that were a twin sister, a kid sister, and a baby sister, all good tight siblings/friends to this day, so I grew up with a respect and liking for women.  After growing up and going out into the world, my parade of beautiful, insightful, fun women, at times teachers, on all levels of the friendship relationship spectrum, reinforced my general fondness and respect for woman.  I’m comfortable with woman and can look them in the eye and it’s been indescribably enriching.  You may have nothing of that.  How can I expect you to relate the way I do.  I do appreciate I can’t, but I can point out my different perspective - although I know it’s like hearing things in a foreign tongue, unless you have some grasp of the language, its just noise.

FYI, since so much of this is about who we ourselves are, let me share that if I were to put a label on me and my particular road less traveled and character,
I think Dharma Bum get’s closest, though to be clear, more of the Hermann Hesse mold* than the sad soul known as Jack Kerouac.
Because of that in general my perspectives are more from the outside looking in than anything else.

I understand that the west has many excesses and that many, way the hell too many woman are used and abused at every level and across a hideous spectrum of hurt and pain and dehumanizing.  We do possess much which is truly hideous -

But the thing is.

I read about some of the things Muslims feel are their “God Given Right” to do to their woman, and it’s nothing but horrendous, primitive tribal grotesqueness at its worst.

So to have anyone who supports that mentality preach at me about sinful western behavior, and all our failures,
with such melodramatic simplistic broad strokes, well it raises my dander because I find it disgusting.

Guess the other thing that totally amazes and increasingly irritates me is how people can be so self-deluded and presumptuous to actually seriously believe they actually understand God and God’s Will.  Then to jump off the deep end even worse and presume they themselves, in all the world, that they somehow represent the God of Time and Light, Creation and Love a billions of years old being if there is one.  It boggles the mind.  And people really really really believe their own knowingly petty selfish selves - it’s insane!  On all sides - though the Abrahamic Trinity of competing religions are by far the worst - guess because they happen to be the ones in charge.

Your stupid “God” is no more than Man’s boundless EGO blasted beyond all rational bounds.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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webplodder - 07 September 2017 07:55 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:17 PM

round and round we go ...

webplodder - 14 July 2017 11:14 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:12 AM
webplodder - 14 July 2017 12:04 AM

You can look away from the lady, yes, but it’s already too late as the emotional impact of seeing a sexy lady has been registered.

Yeah a beautiful woman, especially provocatively dressed one, yes, the male mind registers beautiful sexy woman. 
Perhaps even occasionally a fleeting eye to eye passes between you and said goddess and damned that particularly cuties registers down in your body. 

Know what I do, and I suspect all healthy males do, enjoy the sensation of still being alive while moving along.
Its all a part of being a human and part of a vibrant community.


But then I’ve gone through life by entirely different code of ethics than I think you can imagine.

For instance here’s been a wonderful golden rule I formulated in my twenties and oh boy, lordie has it served me quite well these past decades.

“I don’t want anything from anyone that they don’t want to offer me.”
Living that attitude makes dust of all your anguished contrivances.

Take responsibility for yourself - stop expecting others to babysit you.

Very ethical. I applaud you.  grin

Yes I am a very ethical person!
What’s the deal with you? - In light of your comments here I simply can’t imagine the barrenness of your mindscape.

Webplodder what are your ethics like?
I ask because you sound more like a Misogynist than anything else.

Variety is beautiful.  Haven’t you heard humanity is a rainbow and women are wonderful in all their aspects   cheese


Don’t fall for the ‘misogynist’ label, laddie boy.

Hey that’s why I was asking.
I notice you danced around the question, so it remains a valid question sonny boy.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 07 September 2017 09:13 AM
webplodder - 07 September 2017 08:01 AM

Tell me, Citizenschallenge, did you have a difficult childhood? Did not your folks teach you how to behave in company?

Dude I had fantastic parents who opened my eyes to the amazing world around me.
As for behaving, though we were poor immigrant types, besides all the museums (back then they were free or very cheap) we were regularly packed away to,
we kids were taught at a young age how to clean up, dress up and behave.  Nothing like going to a real big city (Chicago) symphony, to bring out the class in kids,
even kids of the lower classes. Well, good old world parents, with consistent expectation and who could resort the rod (actually wood-spoon), nor abuse it, helped.  tongue wink

Guess, you’ve decided to ignore this - selective comprehension is another hideous trait of your type.

At least I have a healthy sense of self-skepticism and am willing to question and examine myself,
you from your words, seem to live in an absolutist world incapable of reexamining anything.

Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 30 August 2017 07:59 AM
webplodder - 30 August 2017 05:42 AM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 11 August 2017 02:46 PM
webplodder - 09 August 2017 11:18 PM
Beltane - 09 August 2017 11:23 AM

She is from Saudi Arabia, afaik.

Even more unforgivable then.

Saudi Arabia is uncivilized; so, she is unforgivable!! What jungle are you from, Mr./Ms. ‘webplodder’?

Depends what you call uncivilised. Is it civilised to go about in a sexually provocative way and then complain about women being ‘sexualized?’

Before complaining, about women ‘sexualizing’ themselves - open your eye’s and look to the media and advertising executives
and consider how they have and continue to sexualize everything and drive that culture.  Stop picking on the woman, sheople though many may be.

Besides there are more important things to get upset about than the mystery, wonder, and beauty of a woman’s body.

The silly comment ‘get a life’ seems somehow appropriate.
There’s another saying I heard just a couple days ago - “Don’t borrow someone else’s problems” that also seems to fit into this context.

Hey so what do you think about force feeding kids and adults Creationist nonsense? Just out of curious
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry.  We’re all products of our origins and nurturing environment and such.  I don’t know what you were raised in and if I were trapped into the same I’d probably be just as narrow minded.

Me, I’m a truly blessed individual.  Regarding my attitude towards woman, you must understand I was blessed with a wonderful mother and grandmother who opened my eyes to the beauty that surrounds me and kindled my unquenchable thirst for learning about this planet, society, evolution and the achievements of mankind.  Added on to that were a twin sister, a kid sister, and a baby sister, all good tight siblings/friends to this day, so I grew up with a respect and liking for women.  After growing up and going out into the world, my parade of beautiful, insightful, fun women, at times teachers, on all levels of the friendship relationship spectrum, reinforced my general fondness and respect for woman.  I’m comfortable with woman and can look them in the eye and it’s been indescribably enriching.  You may have nothing of that.  How can I expect you to relate the way I do.  I do appreciate I can’t, but I can point out my different perspective - although I know it’s like hearing things in a foreign tongue, unless you have some grasp of the language, its just noise.

FYI, since so much of this is about who we ourselves are, let me share that if I were to put a label on me and my particular road less traveled and character,
I think Dharma Bum get’s closest, though to be clear, more of the Hermann Hesse mold* than the sad soul known as Jack Kerouac.
Because of that in general my perspectives are more from the outside looking in than anything else.

I understand that the west has many excesses and that many, way the hell too many woman are used and abused at every level and across a hideous spectrum of hurt and pain and dehumanizing.  We do possess much which is truly hideous -

But the thing is.

I read about some of the things Muslims feel are their “God Given Right” to do to their woman, and it’s nothing but horrendous, primitive tribal grotesqueness at its worst.

So to have anyone who supports that mentality preach at me about sinful western behavior, and all our failures,
with such melodramatic simplistic broad strokes, well it raises my dander because I find it disgusting.

Guess the other thing that totally amazes and increasingly irritates me is how people can be so self-deluded and presumptuous to actually seriously believe they actually understand God and God’s Will.  Then to jump off the deep end even worse and presume they themselves, in all the world, that they somehow represent the God of Time and Light, Creation and Love a billions of years old being if there is one.  It boggles the mind.  And people really really really believe their own knowingly petty selfish selves - it’s insane!  On all sides - though the Abrahamic Trinity of competing religions are by far the worst - guess because they happen to be the ones in charge.

Your stupid “God” is no more than Man’s boundless EGO blasted beyond all rational bounds.

You seem to think western women are the ‘victims.’ Not so, most women like being looked at when it suits them but when it doesn’t just want to complain. You have been indoctrinated so much you think you’re happy. Good boy, the girls just love your type.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 07 September 2017 09:15 AM
webplodder - 07 September 2017 07:55 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:17 PM

round and round we go ...

webplodder - 14 July 2017 11:14 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 14 July 2017 07:12 AM
webplodder - 14 July 2017 12:04 AM

You can look away from the lady, yes, but it’s already too late as the emotional impact of seeing a sexy lady has been registered.

Yeah a beautiful woman, especially provocatively dressed one, yes, the male mind registers beautiful sexy woman. 
Perhaps even occasionally a fleeting eye to eye passes between you and said goddess and damned that particularly cuties registers down in your body. 

Know what I do, and I suspect all healthy males do, enjoy the sensation of still being alive while moving along.
Its all a part of being a human and part of a vibrant community.


But then I’ve gone through life by entirely different code of ethics than I think you can imagine.

For instance here’s been a wonderful golden rule I formulated in my twenties and oh boy, lordie has it served me quite well these past decades.

“I don’t want anything from anyone that they don’t want to offer me.”
Living that attitude makes dust of all your anguished contrivances.

Take responsibility for yourself - stop expecting others to babysit you.


Very ethical. I applaud you.  grin

Yes I am a very ethical person!
What’s the deal with you? - In light of your comments here I simply can’t imagine the barrenness of your mindscape.

Webplodder what are your ethics like?
I ask because you sound more like a Misogynist than anything else.

Variety is beautiful.  Haven’t you heard humanity is a rainbow and women are wonderful in all their aspects   cheese


Don’t fall for the ‘misogynist’ label, laddie boy.

Hey that’s why I was asking.
I notice you danced around the question, so it remains a valid question sonny boy.

I’m wondering what kind of women you’ve met.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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webplodder - 07 September 2017 08:37 AM

Nakedness is to be enjoyed between husband and wife and no others. The hijab is there for a reason.

We do not invite the Devil to tempt men. Doing so plays into his hands.

Hijab would not prevent rape, nor adultery, thus not temptation.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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Offler - 07 September 2017 09:55 AM
webplodder - 07 September 2017 08:37 AM

Nakedness is to be enjoyed between husband and wife and no others. The hijab is there for a reason.

We do not invite the Devil to tempt men. Doing so plays into his hands.

Hijab would not prevent rape, nor adultery, thus not temptation.

Yes it does because it does not sexualize women.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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Well in that case eating garlic by the women would work more efficiently.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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Offler - 07 September 2017 08:03 AM

I would ask other question…

Why had God or Allah created us naked? Why we dont have fur which would cover our skin?

Is naked skin source of temptation? Yes it is.

I would like to hear an explanation why we should be subjected to this temptation, and why we have to fight it by covering the skin. Also which authority claimed whats enough or not enough.

I think the “garden of eden” story explains that.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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webplodder - 07 September 2017 07:50 AM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 09 August 2017 10:59 AM
webplodder - 09 August 2017 03:46 AM
Beltane - 18 July 2017 09:07 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 18 July 2017 05:02 AM

Saudi Arabia investigates video of woman in miniskirt

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40633687

Her miniskirt looks fine to me. I surely would not call it immodest. The question really is, when will those Saudis that want her punished get humanized?

If the location is one where modest dress is expected, she’s asking for trouble and will probably pay severely. If not, she might get away with it.

I suppose you could argue she had been ‘conditioned’ to dress provocatively, having lived in a decadent country but I think that is giving her too much latitude.

Wouldn’t want to give your woman too much latitude.
Might be a good idea.
Who know’s what she may do with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_KytLO2WME

That video is no longer available.

Women are only as good as how they treat their men.

Good point.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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webplodder - 07 September 2017 05:37 AM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 31 August 2017 07:12 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 30 August 2017 07:59 AM

Your stupid “God” is no more than Man’s boundless EGO blasted beyond all rational bounds.[/color]

You mean, “God” is no more than humans’ absurd insult to their natural intelligence; and it is beyond all rational bounds?

Thanks for addressing the problems with people like ‘webplodder’, who really have no sense of respect for their mothers, sisters, daughters and all the other women that they love (and the women love them back). In turn, they actually have no sense of self-respect. How can a man respect himself when he accepts that his mother belongs in an inferior gender? As I say, if I were the lawyer of an Islamic State terrorist, I would plead insanity defense on his behalf.

“An inferior gender” are your words, not mine. It’s not a question of being inferior or superior. It is a question of which roles are best suited to males and females. Nature has made men and women different in order for them to co-operate together and contribute what skills nature has imbued them with. The problem, nowadays, in rich western societies is that people don’t have to deal with the day to day demands of survival that our forebears had to deal with, where men did the hunting and defending while women were left to take care of kids and provide food and comfort for men. This worked well in that situation but today things have changed so much that men and women are no longer required to fulfill their basic functions.

This situation has caused much dissatisfaction among people who find it difficult to identify with a gender role, causing sexual confusion and distasteful practices, which not so long ago would gave been seriously frowned upon. Today, we live in a dysfunctional politically correct atmosphere which has stifled ration discussion and demonized those who do not happen to agree with the kind of social experiments we see that would have been unthinkable in more sane times.

I think this is basically accurate but it needs to be emphasized that men and women will always be required to fulfill their basic functions, as you say, because that is the only way humanity can continue. The breakdown of gender roles we see today is the result of mental illness and physical decay caused by an hedonistic society - not really because life is easier - although an easy life is a big contributor to hedonism.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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Beltane - 07 September 2017 12:27 PM
webplodder - 07 September 2017 05:37 AM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 31 August 2017 07:12 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 30 August 2017 07:59 AM

Your stupid “God” is no more than Man’s boundless EGO blasted beyond all rational bounds.[/color]

You mean, “God” is no more than humans’ absurd insult to their natural intelligence; and it is beyond all rational bounds?

Thanks for addressing the problems with people like ‘webplodder’, who really have no sense of respect for their mothers, sisters, daughters and all the other women that they love (and the women love them back). In turn, they actually have no sense of self-respect. How can a man respect himself when he accepts that his mother belongs in an inferior gender? As I say, if I were the lawyer of an Islamic State terrorist, I would plead insanity defense on his behalf.

“An inferior gender” are your words, not mine. It’s not a question of being inferior or superior. It is a question of which roles are best suited to males and females. Nature has made men and women different in order for them to co-operate together and contribute what skills nature has imbued them with. The problem, nowadays, in rich western societies is that people don’t have to deal with the day to day demands of survival that our forebears had to deal with, where men did the hunting and defending while women were left to take care of kids and provide food and comfort for men. This worked well in that situation but today things have changed so much that men and women are no longer required to fulfill their basic functions.

This situation has caused much dissatisfaction among people who find it difficult to identify with a gender role, causing sexual confusion and distasteful practices, which not so long ago would gave been seriously frowned upon. Today, we live in a dysfunctional politically correct atmosphere which has stifled ration discussion and demonized those who do not happen to agree with the kind of social experiments we see that would have been unthinkable in more sane times.

I think this is basically accurate but it needs to be emphasized that men and women will always be required to fulfill their basic functions, as you say, because that is the only way humanity can continue. The breakdown of gender roles we see today is the result of mental illness and physical decay caused by an hedonistic society - not really because life is easier - although an easy life is a big contributor to hedonism.

Well I believed that God commanded everyone to get above their own basic instinct and mundane roles to become better.

(eg. We are created sick, commanded to be well)

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