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Do Western Women Reveal Too Much of Their Body?
Posted: 11 July 2017 02:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Tanny - 10 July 2017 06:09 AM

Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are?

It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can’t or won’t accept us as we already are.  Sure, whatever we are, some people won’t like it, that’s a given.  So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us.  And then what’s left are those who like us the way we already are.

This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. 

So let’s take the woman who dresses “inappropriately”.  More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman.  Ok, so what?  She’s clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway.  Once all those who don’t approve walk away, all that’s left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is.

To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly.  Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that “inappropriately” prudish?  Why should she care?  Why shouldn’t she respect herself enough to chart her own course?

The bottom line is that there is no way to win the “I must comply to win respect” game.  The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one’s own course, and let the chips fall where they may.

As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like.

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Posted: 11 July 2017 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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LoisL - 09 July 2017 10:20 PM
Beltane - 09 July 2017 04:43 PM
webplodder - 09 July 2017 03:26 AM

I agree, but I think it’s a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.

Lois is probably referring to “book smarts”. Women who dress “inappropriately” are socially smart and know exactly what they’re doing.

I don’t know that I’d call that “socially smart” either. It isn’t socially smart to disturb people. I think it can amount to abuse. If they had any sense they wouldn’t do something to cause disturbance and discomfort. Even women can be disturbed by provocative dress and the effect it has on men. I, for one, don’t like to see men provoked. It causes bad behavior in the men, which disturbs women, too. I prefer a calmer atmosphere in most venues, most especially in a classroom setting. Most women do it for an ego trip, knowing they will create a disturbance. That isn"t being socially smart in my opiniom. It’s deliberately causing a disturbance and they are usually well-aware of what they are doing.

Seems like you’re describing a lack of social courtesy rather than social stupidity. If what those women do amounts to a disturbance, then it’s a disturbance hardly anybody cares about. And ultimately they’re successful in getting what they want.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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webplodder - 11 July 2017 02:28 AM
Tanny - 10 July 2017 06:09 AM

Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are?

It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can’t or won’t accept us as we already are.  Sure, whatever we are, some people won’t like it, that’s a given.  So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us.  And then what’s left are those who like us the way we already are.

This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. 

So let’s take the woman who dresses “inappropriately”.  More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman.  Ok, so what?  She’s clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway.  Once all those who don’t approve walk away, all that’s left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is.

To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly.  Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that “inappropriately” prudish?  Why should she care?  Why shouldn’t she respect herself enough to chart her own course?

The bottom line is that there is no way to win the “I must comply to win respect” game.  The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one’s own course, and let the chips fall where they may.

As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like.

It is neither a question of complying to win respect nor that of not following the prevailing fashion. Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue of not revealing too much of one’s body is a matter of getting people’s attention for what one thinks and does over how one looks. What one thinks and does, i.e., the contents of one’ character (to paraphrase M. L. King Jr.), are how people should be judged; and those would determine who is equal to or superior to whom.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 12 July 2017 05:19 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

If your advice was for me, you must have read the opposite of what I actually wrote above. You apparently did not see the words “not” and “nor”. I can certainly handle people dress for whatever great many reasons they may have, except when it is like treating women as valuable objects that must be guarded against men, the presumed criminals.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 06:21 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 12 July 2017 05:19 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not,
The game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

If your advice was for me, you must have read the opposite of what I actually wrote above. You apparently did not see the words “not” and “nor”. I can certainly handle people dress for whatever great many reasons they may have, except when it is like treating women as valuable objects that must be guarded against men, the presumed criminals.

Excuse me, too many convolutions, my mistake.
Which is why I won’t touch that last sentence.  No idea what you mean with it.  No point in guessing.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 11:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 12 July 2017 05:19 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to ‘do as you please’ seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 12:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM
webplodder - 11 July 2017 02:28 AM
Tanny - 10 July 2017 06:09 AM

Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are?

It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can’t or won’t accept us as we already are.  Sure, whatever we are, some people won’t like it, that’s a given.  So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us.  And then what’s left are those who like us the way we already are.

This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. 

So let’s take the woman who dresses “inappropriately”.  More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman.  Ok, so what?  She’s clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway.  Once all those who don’t approve walk away, all that’s left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is.

To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly.  Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that “inappropriately” prudish?  Why should she care?  Why shouldn’t she respect herself enough to chart her own course?

The bottom line is that there is no way to win the “I must comply to win respect” game.  The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one’s own course, and let the chips fall where they may.

As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like.

It is neither a question of complying to win respect nor that of not following the prevailing fashion. Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue of not revealing too much of one’s body is a matter of getting people’s attention for what one thinks and does over how one looks. What one thinks and does, i.e., the contents of one’ character (to paraphrase M. L. King Jr.), are how people should be judged; and those would determine who is equal to or superior to whom.

I agree and your appearance is the first thing someone notices about you and I’m afraid human beings tend to make judgements on what they see, right or wrong. It can make a lasting impression.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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webplodder - 12 July 2017 11:58 PM

It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted.

Nonsense.
It more like equivalent to your personal hang up thingie - and yes keep that volume down there are ordinances.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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LoisL - 07 July 2017 09:22 PM
CuthbertJ - 07 July 2017 10:21 AM

I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.

Women who want to be taken seriously don’t dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won’t be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don’t know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what’s appropriate. 


There’s a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it’s not really my place to point all this out.

Then why are you pointing it out?

Like so many things, it’s the group itself that needs to self-regulate.

They already do. If you don’t like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don’t need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.

I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I’ve been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn’t believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you’re a hetero male teacher who’s honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.


If an instructor can’t control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven’t yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn’t be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven’t heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.

Lois

I’m discussing a topic in this forum, that includes men and women, for crying out loud. How about instead of your usual knee-jerk reaction, just take a comment for what it is. And especially ridiculous is the fact that I specifically said it’s up to the group itself to regulate, not me. How you missed that baisc point is beyond me.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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webplodder - 12 July 2017 11:58 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 12 July 2017 05:19 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to ‘do as you please’ seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want.

You’re right but that’s how it is in a free society. I don’t like to see tattoos on people. i think it’s disrespectful. What do you think I should I do about it?

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Posted: 13 July 2017 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 06 July 2017 03:04 PM

In fact, indecent exposure in public is punishable by law even in the very liberal states like Maryland and Massachusetts.

Kinda puts it all in perspective doesn’t it? It says there is a line somewhere. The argument is about where different people want to draw the line. It really isn’t about anyone having the right to do what they want. That is already discounted in the law of many lands.
As for respect v revealing, a recent article suggested that women showing more cleavage are seen as better bosses (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4677186/Women-cleavage-seen-better-bosses.html). Of course, the “news” story didn’t give enough information to track down the article easily and every other story seems to refer to the Daily Mail article. However, the research articles on the topic seem very divided on the issue. Do we respect movie stars with skirt slits to their waists?

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Posted: 13 July 2017 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 13 July 2017 05:18 AM
webplodder - 12 July 2017 11:58 PM

It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted.

Nonsense.
It more like equivalent to your personal hang up thingie - and yes keep that volume down there are ordinances.

What’s wrong with being sensitive to other people’s feelings? Is this all about me??

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Posted: 13 July 2017 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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LoisL - 13 July 2017 12:02 PM
webplodder - 12 July 2017 11:58 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 12 July 2017 05:19 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 12 July 2017 02:40 PM

Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue

Is that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree.
It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy.  We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can’t handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.

The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to ‘do as you please’ seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want.

You’re right but that’s how it is in a free society. I don’t like to see tattoos on people. i think it’s disrespectful. What do you think I should I do about it?

[Spam Nazi line]

I think you should come round to the idea that a free society needs to be seriously looked at. There have to be rules and rules that should be enforced.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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JohnH - 13 July 2017 12:31 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 06 July 2017 03:04 PM

In fact, indecent exposure in public is punishable by law even in the very liberal states like Maryland and Massachusetts.

Kinda puts it all in perspective doesn’t it? It says there is a line somewhere. The argument is about where different people want to draw the line. It really isn’t about anyone having the right to do what they want. That is already discounted in the law of many lands.
As for respect v revealing, a recent article suggested that women showing more cleavage are seen as better bosses (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4677186/Women-cleavage-seen-better-bosses.html). Of course, the “news” story didn’t give enough information to track down the article easily and every other story seems to refer to the Daily Mail article. However, the research articles on the topic seem very divided on the issue. Do we respect movie stars with skirt slits to their waists?

Successful female movie stars are usually highly intelligent and ambitious women who have played the system to achieve success. I don’t blame them because they are also victims of our immoral western idea of society. They have ‘gone with the flow’ that is not of their making.

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