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Discussion of discussing, generally
Posted: 12 July 2017 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I’m going to do a full blog post on this soon, but for now, check out this pledge https://www.protruthpledge.org/

It’s basically journalistic integrity mixed with a little Bertrand Russell. It would be assume if we could get everyone doing this and create an honest internet.

No huge expectations. Nice to think about.

I Pledge My Earnest Efforts To:
Share truth
•  Verify: fact-check information to confirm it is true before accepting and sharing it
•  Balance: share the whole truth, even if some aspects do not support my opinion
•  Cite: share my sources so that others can verify my information
•  Clarify: distinguish between my opinion and the facts
Honor truth
•  Acknowledge: acknowledge when others share true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Reevaluate: reevaluate if my information is challenged, retract it if I cannot verify it
•  Defend: defend others when they come under attack for sharing true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Align: align my opinions and my actions with true information
Encourage truth
•  Fix: ask people to retract information that reliable sources have disproved even if they are my allies
•  Educate: compassionately inform those around me to stop using unreliable sources even if these sources support my opinion
•  Defer: recognize the opinions of experts as more likely to be accurate when the facts are disputed
•  Celebrate: celebrate those who retract incorrect statements and update their beliefs toward the truth

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Posted: 12 July 2017 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Lausten - 12 July 2017 11:09 AM

I’m going to do a full blog post on this soon, but for now, check out this pledge https://www.protruthpledge.org/

It’s basically journalistic integrity mixed with a little Bertrand Russell. It would be assume if we could get everyone doing this and create an honest internet.

No huge expectations. Nice to think about.

I Pledge My Earnest Efforts To:
Share truth
•  Verify: fact-check information to confirm it is true before accepting and sharing it
•  Balance: share the whole truth, even if some aspects do not support my opinion
•  Cite: share my sources so that others can verify my information
•  Clarify: distinguish between my opinion and the facts
Honor truth
•  Acknowledge: acknowledge when others share true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Reevaluate: reevaluate if my information is challenged, retract it if I cannot verify it
•  Defend: defend others when they come under attack for sharing true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Align: align my opinions and my actions with true information
Encourage truth
•  Fix: ask people to retract information that reliable sources have disproved even if they are my allies
•  Educate: compassionately inform those around me to stop using unreliable sources even if these sources support my opinion
•  Defer: recognize the opinions of experts as more likely to be accurate when the facts are disputed
•  Celebrate: celebrate those who retract incorrect statements and update their beliefs toward the truth

In general I’m in full agreement.

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Posted: 12 July 2017 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Lausten - 12 July 2017 11:09 AM

I’m going to do a full blog post on this soon, but for now, check out this pledge https://www.protruthpledge.org/

It’s basically journalistic integrity mixed with a little Bertrand Russell. It would be assume if we could get everyone doing this and create an honest internet.

No huge expectations. Nice to think about.

I Pledge My Earnest Efforts To:
Share truth
•  Verify: fact-check information to confirm it is true before accepting and sharing it
•  Balance: share the whole truth, even if some aspects do not support my opinion
•  Cite: share my sources so that others can verify my information
•  Clarify: distinguish between my opinion and the facts
Honor truth
•  Acknowledge: acknowledge when others share true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Reevaluate: reevaluate if my information is challenged, retract it if I cannot verify it
•  Defend: defend others when they come under attack for sharing true information, even when we disagree otherwise
•  Align: align my opinions and my actions with true information
Encourage truth
•  Fix: ask people to retract information that reliable sources have disproved even if they are my allies
•  Educate: compassionately inform those around me to stop using unreliable sources even if these sources support my opinion
•  Defer: recognize the opinions of experts as more likely to be accurate when the facts are disputed
•  Celebrate: celebrate those who retract incorrect statements and update their beliefs toward the truth

Good plan, Lausten, but there are too many people who wouldn’t know truth if it hit them in the face. They’ll give you an argument every time.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 04:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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The website provides links on key words, and the whole thing is constructed so you can point to a specific rule and show how it was broken. Sure, you have those people who say retractionwatch or snopes are in on the conspiracy, but they are rare enough.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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A call for politically correct politics. LOL. That should go down well - and provide another topic for useless argument rather than getting on with constructive action. Another level of confusion for anyone trying to get at the truth.
There is little incentive to be honest. The world runs on emotion and success relies on evoking the right emotions - whether being voted into office or making heaps of money. Critical thinking is a lost skill - even in universities.

We envision a world where individuals, organizations, and governments intentionally use research-based strategies to make effective decisions, empowering all of us to live happy, meaningful, and flourishing lives.

So people can fight over which experts are right. Experts can vote on which “theory” is correct and if they should act on it. Unfortunately “experts” can be wrong - and even bogus. Think a century of unnecessary deaths because “gentlemen don’t have dirty hands” (child-bed fever) or the forced sterilization justified by eugenics - and even war. Even the subject of this topic which has at its roots the notion of “survival of the fittest” - at any cost. The richest capitalist, the elected politician, the most popular newscaster or “expert”. All based on a false lay-version of economics and evolution.
To deceive as so many do requires a high disregard for those you are attempting to deceive. An underlying lack of caring for fellow human beings that reflect the perceived opinion of “experts” in evolution and politics. Missing from this simple economic formula is the recognition that caring and cooperation are fundamental requirements of our existence.

[ Edited: 13 July 2017 08:24 AM by JohnH ]
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Posted: 13 July 2017 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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JohnH - 13 July 2017 08:19 AM

A call for politically correct politics. LOL. .

LOL, another person saying truth = politically correct. And then undefines any possible way of discerning what’s true. Get people to not trust education, and any idiot can be in charge. And the evidence, mistakes made 100 years ago, prove the point, since we corrected those mistakes and now have common wisdom about what’s true. Caring and cooperation are mentioned frequently in Darwin’s works by the way.

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?

[ Edited: 13 July 2017 10:28 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 13 July 2017 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Noble idea, and I’ve thought of doing something similar in the past. The problem is, the people who would do the pledge are not the ones we need to worry about. Pledgers would already be 99% there already. I think a better way would be some sort of Wall Of Shame. Politicians and Corporations who blatantly do damage should be publically shamed for all to see. Or how about a movement to require all Senators and Reps to hang a placard on their congressional desk, the ones everyone sees on TV, that has all the big donors logos.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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CuthbertJ - 13 July 2017 10:58 AM

Noble idea, and I’ve thought of doing something similar in the past. The problem is, the people who would do the pledge are not the ones we need to worry about. Pledgers would already be 99% there already. I think a better way would be some sort of Wall Of Shame. Politicians and Corporations who blatantly do damage should be publically shamed for all to see. Or how about a movement to require all Senators and Reps to hang a placard on their congressional desk, the ones everyone sees on TV, that has all the big donors logos.

That’ll be in the blog post, it was covered in the podcast where I heard this. The analogy is recycling. If you are going to say corporations should clean up their act, then you have to be doing it too. This is actually easier, in that there is no new infrastructure required. The scientific method already exists, it’s a matter of understanding it and applying it.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Lausten - 13 July 2017 09:41 AM
JohnH - 13 July 2017 08:19 AM

A call for politically correct politics. LOL. .

LOL, another person saying truth = politically correct. And then undefines any possible way of discerning what’s true. Get people to not trust education, and any idiot can be in charge. And the evidence, mistakes made 100 years ago, prove the point, since we corrected those mistakes and now have common wisdom about what’s true. Caring and cooperation are mentioned frequently in Darwin’s works by the way.

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?


LOL, another wannabe world changer who doesn’t even understand politically correct truth. And then focuses on their own little fantasy. Get people to not trust education, and any idiot can be in charge, just like it happened. And the evidence, mistakes made 100 years ago, prove the point, since we corrected those mistakes and now have common wisdom about what’s true. OMG you can take a horse to water….. The fight over cigarettes and health, the Challenger disaster, fracking, immunizations and autism, DDT, the 2008 banking collapse and any number of current “controversies”. Caring and cooperation are mentioned frequently in Darwin’s works by the way. Congratulations on knowing that, but as I said, a false lay-version of economics and evolution. How many people know that and understand the contrast with “red in tooth and claw”? Besides, if I recall correctly, Darwin discussed it because he saw contradiction between cooperation and competition.

Truth is good, but is only a part of getting along together. Maybe if we respected each other instead of the current put-down culture, truth would come out automatically.

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?

Google it! Its about not using words rather than addressing the feelings conveyed by those words.
spam antibody needs a second one

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Posted: 13 July 2017 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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JohnH - 13 July 2017 02:51 PM

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?

Google it! Its about not using words rather than addressing the feelings conveyed by those words.
spam antibody needs a second one

A forum is for discussion, i.e. hearing what you think. I already know what others think about political correctness. If you don’t want to back up what you say with anything but mockery, don’t bother.

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Posted: 13 July 2017 09:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Lausten - 13 July 2017 07:29 PM

If you don’t want to back up what you say with anything but mockery, don’t bother.

Just following your wonderful example.

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Posted: 14 July 2017 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Here’s the full post

It includes this quote from Bart Carpolo

“Science can’t proceed unless people agree to be honest with each other about their results. Everything has to be verifiable. When people lie about their results, it slows down the whole process. Science is a conversation and this conversation can only go forward if we agree to these ground rules. In the same way, collective governance, the social contract, social cooperation can only really do well if we agree to have the conversation where we all use the same facts. If we are going to live together, have a community, large or small, we’ve gotta agree to some rules of conversation. The first of those is everybody’s gotta tell the truth about physical things, money that can be accounted for, etc. Without that, we can’t make any decisions, we can’t even argue.”

Can’t find much problem with that

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Posted: 15 July 2017 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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JohnH - 13 July 2017 09:37 PM
Lausten - 13 July 2017 07:29 PM

If you don’t want to back up what you say with anything but mockery, don’t bother.

Just following your wonderful example.

No John you’re playing the jerk hiding in your yard with your pea-shooter in hand.  What is it?  Do you resent us but can’t actually face it eye to eye, so you slink in the background ready with cheap shots, then go back to hiding when confronted?

JohnH - 13 July 2017 02:51 PM

LOL, another wannabe world changer who doesn’t even understand politically correct ≠ truth.

So howzabout filling in the blank Truth in political discourse is ___________________ .

[ Edited: 15 July 2017 07:15 AM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 15 July 2017 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Guess I’m trying to say what if TRUTH is the issue?

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Posted: 15 July 2017 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Lausten - 13 July 2017 09:41 AM
JohnH - 13 July 2017 08:19 AM

A call for politically correct politics. LOL. .

LOL, another person saying truth = politically correct. And then undefines any possible way of discerning what’s true. Get people to not trust education, and any idiot can be in charge. And the evidence, mistakes made 100 years ago, prove the point, since we corrected those mistakes and now have common wisdom about what’s true. Caring and cooperation are mentioned frequently in Darwin’s works by the way.

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?

It’s a matter of seeming to be correct to a certain group of people. It’s saying what that group of people want to hear. In reality, there may well be nothing correct in politically correct. It simply plays to the preconceived notions of a particular group.

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Posted: 15 July 2017 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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LoisL - 15 July 2017 07:46 AM
Lausten - 13 July 2017 09:41 AM
JohnH - 13 July 2017 08:19 AM

A call for politically correct politics. LOL. .

LOL, another person saying truth = politically correct. And then undefines any possible way of discerning what’s true. Get people to not trust education, and any idiot can be in charge. And the evidence, mistakes made 100 years ago, prove the point, since we corrected those mistakes and now have common wisdom about what’s true. Caring and cooperation are mentioned frequently in Darwin’s works by the way.

I’d like to hear how you define politically correct. How is it different from just “correct”?

It’s a matter of seeming to be correct to a certain group of people. It’s saying what that group of people want to hear. In reality, there may well be nothing correct in politically correct. It simply plays to the preconceived notions of a particular group.

Not bad. That is what it seems to be in practice.

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