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What does it mean to be a Christian??
Posted: 17 October 2017 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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It has been said that Jesus’s father’s name was Pantheras.

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Posted: 17 October 2017 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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Write4U - 16 October 2017 02:17 PM

Adamski said;
Mary is not part of the Trinity, but Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary through the Holy Spirit without the use of a human father and born while Mary was still a virgin.

This is physically impossible. If Jesus was born from a virgin mother without a human father, Jesus would have been female and a clone of Mary.
A female egg, unfertilized by a male, cannot produce male offspring. It is physically impossible.

The Silvery Salamander is a perfect example. It mates with males from a different species of salamander, but rejects its sperm. The result is that the entire Silvery Salamander family is female and clones of their mother. There exist no male Silvery Salamanders.

Lacking its own males, the Silvery Salamander breeds with male Blue-Spotted or Jefferson Salamanders from March to April. The males’ spermatophores only stimulate egg development; their genetic material does not contribute to the offspring’s DNA.

Therefore all Silvery Salamaders are female and clones of the mother.

Richard Carrier explains that the Bible says God saved the sperm of David to impregnate Mary.

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Posted: 17 October 2017 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

Are you asking members of the forum to prove there is no God or Messiah….

No.  I’m asking them to prove that they are in a position to come to a conclusion on the topic.

.... or can you defend their point of view as you seem to defend Christians?

I can and happily will defend reason.  But not atheism, for atheism is not reason, but rather a faith based ideology which competes with theism.

The kind of forum you describe would note that burden of proof is a legal standard which the Innocence Project has shown on several occasions ends up with the wrong answer.

Ah, so we are no longer interested in making burden of proof demands on anyone, including theists? 

Furthermore, a forum based upon critical thinking would hopefully be aware of the philosopher Karl Popper who pointed out a general rule which amongst other things means that you cannot prove something doesn’t/didn’t exist.

Ok, but I’m not asking anyone to do that.  I’m asking atheists to prove that their often stated ability to arrive at a credible theory or conclusion on this topic exists.  Upon what is such a proposed ability based?

The only way to prove atheists wrong is to prove that God exists.

Nope, we just have to prove that they don’t have the ability they assert that they have.  Here’s how that works, and it will sound very familiar to you.

THEISM: When theists make god claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically some holy book, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions. 

ATHEISM:  When atheists make their claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically human reason, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions. 

Neither party can prove the qualifications of their chosen authority.  Thus, both parties are faith based believers.  Thus, nobody wins.

All that I’ve done above is apply the very same challenge to both parties and their claims in a fair even handed manner.  The name for this process is…

Reason.

What trips up many atheists is that they confuse reason with ideology. 

Similarly the only way for Christians to prove themselves not deluded is to prove Christ existed.

Ah, so we’re back to the burden of proof already, eh? 

I hear you saying that theists bear that burden for their claims, but atheists don’t bear any such burden. 

Yes, atheists are making a claim, even though they often don’t realize it.  They are claiming that human reason is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions (scope of god theories).  It’s the same kind of claim theists make in regards to their holy books, and with the very same lack of proof.

This may shed some light on the difference;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYWVBs7lfnk

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Posted: 17 October 2017 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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Lausten - 17 October 2017 01:53 PM
Write4U - 16 October 2017 02:17 PM

Adamski said;
Mary is not part of the Trinity, but Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary through the Holy Spirit without the use of a human father and born while Mary was still a virgin.

This is physically impossible. If Jesus was born from a virgin mother without a human father, Jesus would have been female and a clone of Mary.
A female egg, unfertilized by a male, cannot produce male offspring. It is physically impossible.

The Silvery Salamander is a perfect example. It mates with males from a different species of salamander, but rejects its sperm. The result is that the entire Silvery Salamander family is female and clones of their mother. There exist no male Silvery Salamanders.

Lacking its own males, the Silvery Salamander breeds with male Blue-Spotted or Jefferson Salamanders from March to April. The males’ spermatophores only stimulate egg development; their genetic material does not contribute to the offspring’s DNA.

Therefore all Silvery Salamaders are female and clones of the mother.

Richard Carrier explains that the Bible says God saved the sperm of David to impregnate Mary.

God has a sperm bank?  And where can this be found?  Males!  Males are god’s sperm bank!

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Posted: 18 October 2017 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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Lausten - 17 October 2017 01:53 PM

Richard Carrier explains that the Bible says God saved the sperm of David to impregnate Mary.


That is interesting. Never heard that before. And I never heard of Richard Carrier before either. Now we know why the Jews took the bones out of the bone boxes and mixed them with other bones. And never DNA any of them. There are people who claim to be the relatives of King David that are living today.

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Posted: 18 October 2017 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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Write4U - 17 October 2017 06:31 PM
Lausten - 17 October 2017 01:53 PM
Write4U - 16 October 2017 02:17 PM

Adamski said;
Mary is not part of the Trinity, but Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary through the Holy Spirit without the use of a human father and born while Mary was still a virgin.

This is physically impossible. If Jesus was born from a virgin mother without a human father, Jesus would have been female and a clone of Mary.
A female egg, unfertilized by a male, cannot produce male offspring. It is physically impossible.

The Silvery Salamander is a perfect example. It mates with males from a different species of salamander, but rejects its sperm. The result is that the entire Silvery Salamander family is female and clones of their mother. There exist no male Silvery Salamanders.

Lacking its own males, the Silvery Salamander breeds with male Blue-Spotted or Jefferson Salamanders from March to April. The males’ spermatophores only stimulate egg development; their genetic material does not contribute to the offspring’s DNA.

Therefore all Silvery Salamaders are female and clones of the mother.

Richard Carrier explains that the Bible says God saved the sperm of David to impregnate Mary.

God has a sperm bank?  And where can this be found?  Males!  Males are god’s sperm bank!

Ha! look what popped in my facebook feed.

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Posted: 18 October 2017 09:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Lausten - 18 October 2017 07:55 PM
Write4U - 17 October 2017 06:31 PM
Lausten - 17 October 2017 01:53 PM
Write4U - 16 October 2017 02:17 PM

Adamski said;
Mary is not part of the Trinity, but Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary through the Holy Spirit without the use of a human father and born while Mary was still a virgin.

This is physically impossible. If Jesus was born from a virgin mother without a human father, Jesus would have been female and a clone of Mary.
A female egg, unfertilized by a male, cannot produce male offspring. It is physically impossible.

The Silvery Salamander is a perfect example. It mates with males from a different species of salamander, but rejects its sperm. The result is that the entire Silvery Salamander family is female and clones of their mother. There exist no male Silvery Salamanders.

Lacking its own males, the Silvery Salamander breeds with male Blue-Spotted or Jefferson Salamanders from March to April. The males’ spermatophores only stimulate egg development; their genetic material does not contribute to the offspring’s DNA.

Therefore all Silvery Salamaders are female and clones of the mother.

Richard Carrier explains that the Bible says God saved the sperm of David to impregnate Mary.

God has a sperm bank?  And where can this be found?  Males!  Males are god’s sperm bank!

Ha! look what popped in my facebook feed.

I was tempted to post another George Carlin humorous skit on religion, but I realize now that any attempt to make sense of the mental maze that has been purposely created in scripture is designed to prevent the “believer in miracles” from asking reasoned and reasonable questions.

Let me quote one line of Carlin. “I used to believe in a god, until I reached the age of reason”.
I believe that pretty well sums it up.

[ Edited: 18 October 2017 09:40 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 October 2017 10:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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Tanny said,
ATHEISM:  When atheists make their claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically human reason, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions.

And what are those questions?

That miracles can and do happen?
That there is an invisible man in the sky (up there) who is responsible for all the good things, but earthly man (the off spring of god) is responsible for all the bad things.

As an atheist I can agree with the latter, but the answer to the first is that a God (as defined) is simply not necessary, therefore proof needs not provided, in accordance with Occam’s razor.

The burden still rests on the “believer in miracles” to prove that a God was necessary for the creation of the universe, because it is an “extra-ordinary claim” and the burden of proof always falls on the person making that “extra-ordinary” claim.

In science there is a theory of “necessity and sufficiency”, which explains the causal imperative of natural creation and evolution of the universe (and all things) without the use of miracles.

Oh hell, I am going to post Carlin’s perspective anyway.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

[ Edited: 19 October 2017 04:15 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 19 October 2017 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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What does being a Christian mean?
 
It means never being able to understand the pre-history of your forefathers.
 
It means never being able to understand how an apple became an apple as you know it.
 
It means never understanding why we have 24 hours in a day.
 
It means never understanding why the circle has 360 degrees.

It means never knowing the truth about how and why man was created.
 
It means never being able to understand how incredible humans really are.
 
It means never understanding how really bad the Christian religion has been to mankind.

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Posted: 19 October 2017 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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MikeYohe” date=“1508459575”]What does being a Christian mean?
 
“It means never being able to understand the pre-history of your forefathers”. |We’re getting a pretty good idea.
 
‘It means never being able to understand how an apple became an apple as you know it.” |The Fibonacci sequence
 
“It means never understanding why we have 24 hours in a day.”  |The orbit of the earth around the sun
 
“It means never understanding why the circle has 360 degrees.”  |A geometric model adopted for convenience. If you had asked about Pi or Phi, that would have been problematic. Check out the Koch snowflake fractal. Its a circle with an infinite circumference.

“It means never knowing the truth about how and why man was created.” |The how is pretty well solved, the why is a result of possibility and probability. Why was anything created in the form we know it today. Evolution and natural selection.
 
“It means never being able to understand how incredible humans really are.” |Really? Two billion specialized neurons which have specific and combined interactions which produce sentience. I, for one, am astounded by all natural phenomena, which are a result of evolutionary processes. But fundamentally they are evolved bio-chemical processes.
 
“It means never understanding how really bad the Christian religion has been to mankind.”

On the main I agree, but there are also some socially redemptive qualities in the philosophy. The problem is that all religions eventually become corrupted by man’s individual desires (movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction).

[ Edited: 19 October 2017 04:23 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 20 October 2017 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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Write4U - 19 October 2017 04:02 PM

MikeYohe” date=“1508459575”]What does being a Christian mean?
 
“It means never being able to understand the pre-history of your forefathers”. |We’re getting a pretty good idea.
 
‘It means never being able to understand how an apple became an apple as you know it.” |The Fibonacci sequence
 
“It means never understanding why we have 24 hours in a day.”  |The orbit of the earth around the sun
 
“It means never understanding why the circle has 360 degrees.”  |A geometric model adopted for convenience. If you had asked about Pi or Phi, that would have been problematic. Check out the Koch snowflake fractal. Its a circle with an infinite circumference.

“It means never knowing the truth about how and why man was created.” |The how is pretty well solved, the why is a result of possibility and probability. Why was anything created in the form we know it today. Evolution and natural selection.
 
“It means never being able to understand how incredible humans really are.” |Really? Two billion specialized neurons which have specific and combined interactions which produce sentience. I, for one, am astounded by all natural phenomena, which are a result of evolutionary processes. But fundamentally they are evolved bio-chemical processes.
 
“It means never understanding how really bad the Christian religion has been to mankind.”

On the main I agree, but there are also some socially redemptive qualities in the philosophy. The problem is that all religions eventually become corrupted by man’s individual desires (movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction).

 
I didn’t know you were a Christian.  grin
We agree on one of seven.

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Posted: 20 October 2017 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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Mike Yohe said,
 
I didn’t know you were a Christian.  grin
We agree on one of seven.

Sorry to disappoint. I am an atheist. But if you can compare my behavior as Christian, I’ll consider it a compliment.

But it also proves that one does not need to be a Christian to recognize certain fundamental social responsibilities. My parents also were atheists, but lived by your standards of being a (good) Christian.

Many social philosophers describe what it is to be a humanitarian, without being a Christian.

I object to seeing the bible as a scientific instrument. It’s fundamentally a philosophical instrument.

[ Edited: 20 October 2017 07:30 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 20 October 2017 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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Write4U - 20 October 2017 07:27 PM

Mike Yohe said,
 
I didn’t know you were a Christian.  grin
We agree on one of seven.

Sorry to disappoint. I am an atheist. But if you can compare my behavior as Christian, I’ll consider it a compliment.

But it also proves that one does not need to be a Christian to recognize certain fundamental social responsibilities. My parents also were atheists, but lived by your standards of being a (good) Christian.

Many social philosophers describe what it is to be a humanitarian, without being a Christian.

I object to seeing the bible as a scientific instrument. It’s fundamentally a philosophical instrument.

Let’s look at the born of virgin mother and then move to the seed.
 
Religions evolve from older religions. That’s a fact. What is going on here is how religion in the time after Jesus was trying to fit in with the older stories that had been passed down from really far back in time when gods were not deities. Jesus born from a virgin! Why? What does a virgin have to do with anything? The history of gods from Sumer to Jerusalem, most were not born of virgins. So, why the change in the Canaan gods at the time of Jesus? I would think that we should look at the possibility of the androgynous gods. Before there were full human shaped gods, the Canaanites had Pales, which was an androgynous god. The Egyptians had several androgynous gods.
 
But I want to go back further in time. The OT picked up the creation story in a time of the seven-day week. So, god had to rest on the seventh day, what else could he do? The older stories were when the week only had six days. Why six days? Everything was based upon six or twelve. Because that’s how many fingers the gods had. We had the giants, before them we had the six-finger gods. Before them was the androgynous gods. 
 
We can put all these theories about sperm and outer space into debating. But why not look at the history. Jesus was a high priest, but he was Jewish and Gnostic. The Jewish had deities. Gnostic was no deities, it was atheist and based upon god being knowledge. Therefore, the seed of god was in all of us. We are all part of god (knowledge). Some of us maybe a little godlier than others.  LOL

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Posted: 21 October 2017 03:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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MikeYohe - 20 October 2017 09:35 PM
Write4U - 20 October 2017 07:27 PM

Mike Yohe said,
 
I didn’t know you were a Christian.  grin
We agree on one of seven.

Sorry to disappoint. I am an atheist. But if you can compare my behavior as Christian, I’ll consider it a compliment.

But it also proves that one does not need to be a Christian to recognize certain fundamental social responsibilities. My parents also were atheists, but lived by your standards of being a (good) Christian.

Many social philosophers describe what it is to be a humanitarian, without being a Christian.

I object to seeing the bible as a scientific instrument. It’s fundamentally a philosophical instrument.

Let’s look at the born of virgin mother and then move to the seed.
 
Religions evolve from older religions. That’s a fact. What is going on here is how religion in the time after Jesus was trying to fit in with the older stories that had been passed down from really far back in time when gods were not deities. Jesus born from a virgin! Why? What does a virgin have to do with anything? The history of gods from Sumer to Jerusalem, most were not born of virgins. So, why the change in the Canaan gods at the time of Jesus? I would think that we should look at the possibility of the androgynous gods. Before there were full human shaped gods, the Canaanites had Pales, which was an androgynous god. The Egyptians had several androgynous gods.
 
But I want to go back further in time. The OT picked up the creation story in a time of the seven-day week. So, god had to rest on the seventh day, what else could he do? The older stories were when the week only had six days. Why six days? Everything was based upon six or twelve. Because that’s how many fingers the gods had. We had the giants, before them we had the six-finger gods. Before them was the androgynous gods. 
 
We can put all these theories about sperm and outer space into debating. But why not look at the history. Jesus was a high priest, but he was Jewish and Gnostic. The Jewish had deities. Gnostic was no deities, it was atheist and based upon god being knowledge. Therefore, the seed of god was in all of us. We are all part of god (knowledge). Some of us maybe a little godlier than others.  LOL

That was an excellent presentation of the philosophical evolution in religious beliefs (myths) i.e. Christianity.

But it is the attachment of unnecessary miracles and unearthly beings, which has caused great harm to the fundamental messages and on occasion was reason to go to war. Religious wars of man against man, sanctioned by the same God as in the God of the OT.
A perfect example is in your posit.  And for some reason in these type of discussions, I always recall the fate of Hypatia.
http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm

[ Edited: 21 October 2017 03:07 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 21 October 2017 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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MikeYohe - 20 October 2017 09:35 PM

But why not look at the history.

Good question. I wish you would do that. “born of a virgin” was not invented with Christianity. Look it up.

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