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What does it mean to be a Christian??
Posted: 18 July 2017 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

Are you asking members of the forum to prove there is no God or Messiah….

No.  I’m asking them to prove that they are in a position to come to a conclusion on the topic.

.... or can you defend their point of view as you seem to defend Christians?

I can and happily will defend reason.  But not atheism, for atheism is not reason, but rather a faith based ideology which competes with theism.

The kind of forum you describe would note that burden of proof is a legal standard which the Innocence Project has shown on several occasions ends up with the wrong answer.

Ah, so we are no longer interested in making burden of proof demands on anyone, including theists? 

Furthermore, a forum based upon critical thinking would hopefully be aware of the philosopher Karl Popper who pointed out a general rule which amongst other things means that you cannot prove something doesn’t/didn’t exist.

Ok, but I’m not asking anyone to do that.  I’m asking atheists to prove that their often stated ability to arrive at a credible theory or conclusion on this topic exists.  Upon what is such a proposed ability based?

The only way to prove atheists wrong is to prove that God exists.

Nope, we just have to prove that they don’t have the ability they assert that they have.  Here’s how that works, and it will sound very familiar to you.

THEISM: When theists make god claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically some holy book, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions. 

ATHEISM:  When atheists make their claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically human reason, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions. 

Neither party can prove the qualifications of their chosen authority.  Thus, both parties are faith based believers.  Thus, nobody wins.

All that I’ve done above is apply the very same challenge to both parties and their claims in a fair even handed manner.  The name for this process is…

Reason.

What trips up many atheists is that they confuse reason with ideology. 

Similarly the only way for Christians to prove themselves not deluded is to prove Christ existed.

Ah, so we’re back to the burden of proof already, eh? 

I hear you saying that theists bear that burden for their claims, but atheists don’t bear any such burden. 

Yes, atheists are making a claim, even though they often don’t realize it.  They are claiming that human reason is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions (scope of god theories).  It’s the same kind of claim theists make in regards to their holy books, and with the very same lack of proof.

Except that human reason does deliver credible snswers and it’s been proven over and over again. Read a book on physics. geology, biology or chemistry sometime. Of course you can reject it all, if you wish but you can’t rationally say that human reason does not deliver credible answers unless you’re a complete fool. The house you live in, the car you drive, the plane you fly in are all results of human reason. Show similar proof of religious claims. Meanwhile avoid crossing the street or even getting put of bed. PS, your bed is also the result of human reason.

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Posted: 18 July 2017 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Tanny is making up meanings of words and I doubt he even believes them or understands them.

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Posted: 18 July 2017 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Tanny don’t run from me.  Can you respond to my serious response to your ‘challenge’

Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 July 2017 06:33 AM
Tanny - 17 July 2017 09:16 AM

What does it mean to be a Christian?

It means you’ve prone to delusion. What other answer would you expect from a humanist forum?

Ah, I would expect a forum about critical thinking, a center for rational inquiry, to request that you please prove your claim that Christianity equals being prone to delusion.

Your claim, your burden of proof.  Let’s see it.

Believing that you petty jealous, self-centered insecure mortal can possibly know the billions of years old god of light and time, creation and love.
Virgin birth.
Believing that “God” demands obedience and endless praise from her creatures.
Believing that who you are on this physical will continue after your body dies rots, into some perfect heavenly home.*


That heaven thing is about as childish and not thought through as I can imagine.

Are you even aware of how much your spirit is dependent on your body is while going through and experiencing life?
To imagine you could become a puff of spirit, yet retain all your Earthly personality - it’s bizarre and indicates individuals who have never actually lived a conscious engaged life of self-reflection on events and life as we pass through days.  Too busy repeating empty mantras and praise, praise, praise, praise.

But how many times do you stop to look at the world and take a moment to praise this Universe and Evolution for the wonders it’s achieved?

This is a discussion group.  It’s fine and dandy to make up all of your straw men, but how about answering something other than your own imagination smirk

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Posted: 18 July 2017 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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LoisL - 18 July 2017 04:51 PM
Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

Yes, atheists are making a claim, even though they often don’t realize it.  They are claiming that human reason is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions (scope of god theories).  It’s the same kind of claim theists make in regards to their holy books, and with the very same lack of proof.

Except that human reason does deliver credible snswers and it’s been proven over and over again. Read a book on physics. geology, biology or chemistry sometime. Of course you can reject it all, if you wish but you can’t rationally say that human reason does not deliver credible answers unless you’re a complete fool. The house you live in, the car you drive, the plane you fly in are all results of human reason. Show similar proof of religious claims. Meanwhile avoid crossing the street or even getting put of bed. PS, your bed is also the result of human reason.

The reason many atheist “movements” arose was a reaction to God being pushed in their faces all the time and even being used to discriminate. (Look how important religion is in elections). I have little interest in whether God exists or not. It is irrelevant to me and many other atheists other than the perils of the loony decisions made in His name, some of which do this day are killing and maiming people. And before you get all huffy about any particular God not doing that, pause and think about what has been done in the name of that God in the past and wonder if such “rational” religious thinking could repeat itself again sometime.

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Posted: 18 July 2017 09:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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What an odd game this one is…

Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

The only way to prove atheists wrong is to prove that God exists.

Okay, it’s true than there is a tendency for atheism to be about acknowledging God simply by their focused rejection of God.
But, there are many others for whom that term doesn’t apply at all.
How about “Irrelevance” - God is beyond human understanding.  She, He, It really doesn’t matter in the real scheme of our lives.

To imagine a super human god worried about human affairs is nothing but a narcissistic reflection.
To take the notion of Heaven seriously is a nightmare beyond description.
 
There is no rational, and for the spiritually attuned introspective, no visceral substance to the notion,
once you start to become acquainted with the realities of our physical world, deep time and how we arrived at this juncture in our planet’s evolutionary story, all your blood soaked holy Abrahamic tribal text are just that, blood soaked literature, spiritual art, and that’s about it.  Most certainly not the reflection of a being we can’t comprehend.  Your Jesus is a saint and wonderful brother, Your God is figment of your imagination.  And that’s all folks.

Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

Nope, we just have to prove that they don’t have the ability they assert that they have.  Here’s how that works, and it will sound very familiar to you.

THEISM: When theists make god claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically some holy book, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions.  {Which right there is a red flag warning - these are holy tribal books, books who’s first priority was in keeping the tribe together in a difficult world.  But GOD is the fuk beyond those petty human issues, don’t you think? - Can you imagine that?}

ATHEISM:  When atheists make their claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically human reason, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions.  {Here you get way the hell ahead of yourself.  The INTELLECTUAL ENLIGHTENMENT was about realizing that learning about this physical world we are part of demands observation based learning.  Measurements, repeatable experiments and observations, and dedication to utmost honesty in taking measurements, reporting results and when representing the world and ideas of their intellectual opponents.}

Neither party can prove the qualifications of their chosen authority.  Thus, both parties are faith based believers.  Thus, nobody wins.

{This is unmitigated bullshit.  The one party demand obedience to ancient tribal leaders and their oh so limited world outlook.
The other side says - SHOW ME! 
One side likes stoning opponents into silence,
the other side listens and learns from them.

...
The hell there is anything in common between the two ! ! !}

All that I’ve done above is apply the very same challenge to both parties and their claims in a fair even handed manner. 
{Nonsense you created a tailor made straw man that deliberately ignores who we really are.  But then how would a ‘faithful’ have any clue what goes on in our minds.} The name for this process is…

Reason.
{Bullshit, it was how to create straw men, while ignoring the real questions.}

What trips up many atheists is that they confuse reason with ideology. 

Similarly the only way for Christians to prove themselves not deluded is to prove Christ existed.

Ah, so we’re back to the burden of proof already, eh? 

I hear you saying that theists bear that burden for their claims, but atheists don’t bear any such burden. 

Yes, atheists are making a claim, even though they often don’t realize it.  They are claiming that human reason is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions (scope of god theories){NO, NO, NO, we couldn’t care less about “god theories” or “god’s theory”!  We are concerned with understanding how our real four dimensional world functions, and how this fantastic planet of our’s got here.  Oh and that’s a perfect example of you making up bullshit for your own convenience. .  It’s the same kind of claim theists make in regards to their holy books, and with the very same lack of proof.{lordie, lordie, lordie, so you’re actually an impartial arbiter, hmmm my mistake and I thought you were a partisan, my, my. .

Tragically the only way for you to prove your points is to ...
Now if only you didn’t so hideously misrepresent one side and what they actually believe.

[ Edited: 18 July 2017 10:00 PM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 18 July 2017 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Adamski - 17 July 2017 03:26 AM

Can someone tell me? Can you still call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in the resurrection?? How about rejectiing the virgin birth? Can you still be a Christian? Redemption? Salvation?

Anyone able to answer?

I really don’t know. You’d have to ask a Church leader. I don’t know what the obligations are for being a Christian beyond believing Jesus us your savior, whatever that means. . But, then, religion always has seemed weird to me. I can’t make head or tail of it. It’s too esoteric.

[ Edited: 18 July 2017 10:25 PM by LoisL ]
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Posted: 18 July 2017 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Tanny - 17 July 2017 09:16 AM

What does it mean to be a Christian?

It means you’ve prone to delusion. What other answer would you expect from a humanist forum?

Ah, I would expect a forum about critical thinking, a center for rational inquiry, to request that you please prove your claim that Christianity equals being prone to delusion.

Your claim, your burden of proof.  Let’s see it.

If you believe in something that’s never been proven to be true or to exist then your belief is delusional, by definition.  That’s all the proof anyone should need that anyone who embraces Christianity (or any supernatural religion) is prone to delusion.


Lois

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Posted: 19 July 2017 12:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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LoisL - 18 July 2017 10:18 PM
Adamski - 17 July 2017 03:26 AM

Can someone tell me? Can you still call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in the resurrection?? How about rejectiing the virgin birth? Can you still be a Christian? Redemption? Salvation?

Anyone able to answer?

I really don’t know. You’d have to ask a Church leader. I don’t know what the obligations are for being a Christian beyond believing Jesus us your savior, whatever that means. . But, then, religion always has seemed weird to me. I can’t make head or tail of it. It’s too esoteric.

Notice how tanny refuses to answer

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Posted: 19 July 2017 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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LoisL - 18 July 2017 04:51 PM

Except that human reason does deliver credible snswers and it’s been proven over and over again.

Agreed. Human reason does obviously deliver credible answers on very many issues.

Except that being useful for one thing, or many things, does not prove usefulness for ALL THINGS, particularly the very largest of questions.

As example, holy books have proven useful for many things.  The Bible is the most popular book of all time, so obviously a great many people have found enjoyment and meaning in reading it.  Entire civilizations have been built upon this book.  Billions of lives have revolved around it.

Does that automatically prove that the Bible is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions?  Obviously it does not. 

I’m a very fast typist.  Does that prove I can type the next best seller?  Nope. 

You’re making a wild speculative leap from one thing, human scale issues, to something else entirely, the very largest of questions about the fundamental nature of all reality.

This unproven leap is the atheist faith I’ve been referring to.  It’s a faith so deep, so strong, so un-examined, that you don’t even realize that you have this faith.

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Posted: 19 July 2017 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 18 July 2017 09:55 PM

What an odd game this one is…

Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

The only way to prove atheists wrong is to prove that God exists.

Okay, it’s true than there is a tendency for atheism to be about acknowledging God simply by their focused rejection of God.
But, there are many others for whom that term doesn’t apply at all.
How about “Irrelevance” - God is beyond human understanding.  She, He, It really doesn’t matter in the real scheme of our lives.

To imagine a super human god worried about human affairs is nothing but a narcissistic reflection.
To take the notion of Heaven seriously is a nightmare beyond description.
 
There is no rational, and for the spiritually attuned introspective, no visceral substance to the notion,
once you start to become acquainted with the realities of our physical world, deep time and how we arrived at this juncture in our planet’s evolutionary story, all your blood soaked holy Abrahamic tribal text are just that, blood soaked literature, spiritual art, and that’s about it.  Most certainly not the reflection of a being we can’t comprehend.  Your Jesus is a saint and wonderful brother, Your God is figment of your imagination.  And that’s all folks.

Tanny - 18 July 2017 03:54 PM

Nope, we just have to prove that they don’t have the ability they assert that they have.  Here’s how that works, and it will sound very familiar to you.

THEISM: When theists make god claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically some holy book, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions.  {Which right there is a red flag warning - these are holy tribal books, books who’s first priority was in keeping the tribe together in a difficult world.  But GOD is the fuk beyond those petty human issues, don’t you think? - Can you imagine that?}

ATHEISM:  When atheists make their claims, we reasonably ask them to prove that their chosen authority, typically human reason, is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions.  {Here you get way the hell ahead of yourself.  The INTELLECTUAL ENLIGHTENMENT was about realizing that learning about this physical world we are part of demands observation based learning.  Measurements, repeatable experiments and observations, and dedication to utmost honesty in taking measurements, reporting results and when representing the world and ideas of their intellectual opponents.}

Neither party can prove the qualifications of their chosen authority.  Thus, both parties are faith based believers.  Thus, nobody wins.

{This is unmitigated bullshit.  The one party demand obedience to ancient tribal leaders and their oh so limited world outlook.
The other side says - SHOW ME! 
One side likes stoning opponents into silence,
the other side listens and learns from them.

...
The hell there is anything in common between the two ! ! !}

All that I’ve done above is apply the very same challenge to both parties and their claims in a fair even handed manner. 
{Nonsense you created a tailor made straw man that deliberately ignores who we really are.  But then how would a ‘faithful’ have any clue what goes on in our minds.} The name for this process is…

Reason.
{Bullshit, it was how to create straw men, while ignoring the real questions.}

What trips up many atheists is that they confuse reason with ideology. 

Similarly the only way for Christians to prove themselves not deluded is to prove Christ existed.

Ah, so we’re back to the burden of proof already, eh? 

I hear you saying that theists bear that burden for their claims, but atheists don’t bear any such burden. 

Yes, atheists are making a claim, even though they often don’t realize it.  They are claiming that human reason is qualified to deliver credible answers on the very largest of questions (scope of god theories){NO, NO, NO, we couldn’t care less about “god theories” or “god’s theory”!  We are concerned with understanding how our real four dimensional world functions, and how this fantastic planet of our’s got here.  Oh and that’s a perfect example of you making up bullshit for your own convenience. .  It’s the same kind of claim theists make in regards to their holy books, and with the very same lack of proof.{lordie, lordie, lordie, so you’re actually an impartial arbiter, hmmm my mistake and I thought you were a partisan, my, my. .

Tragically the only way for you to prove your points is to ...
Now if only you didn’t so hideously misrepresent one side and what they actually believe.

Please learn how to use the quote function, and please don’t attribute words to me that I didn’t write.  Thanks.

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Posted: 19 July 2017 05:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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JohnH - 18 July 2017 09:49 PM

The reason many atheist “movements” arose was a reaction to God being pushed in their faces all the time and even being used to discriminate. (Look how important religion is in elections). I have little interest in whether God exists or not. It is irrelevant to me and many other atheists other than the perils of the loony decisions made in His name, some of which do this day are killing and maiming people. And before you get all huffy about any particular God not doing that, pause and think about what has been done in the name of that God in the past and wonder if such “rational” religious thinking could repeat itself again sometime.

Sorry, this is standard issue atheist ideology dogma chanting.

Over the last century WAAAAAY more people have been killed by atheists in explicitly atheist regimes than by the religious.

And you could care less, and would never reference that historical fact unless someone forces you to do so.

This illustrates that you aren’t interested in the subject of violence and oppression at all, unless those subjects can be used to honk the atheist ideology horn.  If you’re only interested in religious violence, you aren’t actually interested in violence.

Next objection please.

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Posted: 19 July 2017 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Tanny - 19 July 2017 05:28 AM
JohnH - 18 July 2017 09:49 PM

The reason many atheist “movements” arose was a reaction to God being pushed in their faces all the time and even being used to discriminate. (Look how important religion is in elections). I have little interest in whether God exists or not. It is irrelevant to me and many other atheists other than the perils of the loony decisions made in His name, some of which do this day are killing and maiming people. And before you get all huffy about any particular God not doing that, pause and think about what has been done in the name of that God in the past and wonder if such “rational” religious thinking could repeat itself again sometime.

Sorry, this is standard issue atheist ideology dogma chanting.

Over the last century WAAAAAY more people have been killed by atheists in explicitly atheist regimes than by the religious.

And you could care less, and would never reference that historical fact unless someone forces you to do so.

This illustrates that you aren’t interested in the subject of violence and oppression at all, unless those subjects can be used to honk the atheist ideology horn.  If you’re only interested in religious violence, you aren’t actually interested in violence.

Next objection please.

That’s right, totally ignore his point and go off on a wild goose chase of finger-pointing.  It’s about the only tool you have in your arsenal, isn’t it?  smile

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Posted: 19 July 2017 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Tanny - 19 July 2017 05:28 AM

[Sorry, this is standard issue atheist ideology dogma chanting.

Standard atheist dogma chant…

GTF outta my face with your f*****g religion.

Period!
You understand? - And are you just enjoy trying to rub your religious bullshit in every face you can?

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Posted: 19 July 2017 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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JohnH - 19 July 2017 07:30 AM

And are you just enjoy trying to rub your religious bullshit in every face you can?

Is that question directed to me?  If so, which “religious bullshit” of mine exactly are you referring to?

I’m not rubbing religion in anybody’s face.  I’m rubbing reason in your face. 

What may be confusing you is that perhaps you think rejecting atheism is the same as embracing religion.  I’m not rejecting atheism because I’m religious, because I’m not religious.  I’m rejecting atheism because it’s not a product of reason, but is instead just another faith based ideology.

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Posted: 19 July 2017 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Tanny - 19 July 2017 05:28 AM

Over the last century WAAAAAY more people have been killed by atheists in explicitly atheist regimes than by the religious.

And you could care less, and would never reference that historical fact unless someone forces you to do so.

This illustrates that you aren’t interested in the subject of violence and oppression at all, unless those subjects can be used to honk the atheist ideology horn.  If you’re only interested in religious violence, you aren’t actually interested in violence.

Next objection please.

Tanny has a way of taking interesting discussion and reducing them to his version of common wisdom. Soooooo many people have tried to tally up the death counts, but whomever does it always leaves something out. Be it percentage of population, inter-religious wars, religion motivated politics, labeling a war secular and by association claiming it is atheist motivated, just to scratch the surface. But don’t bother trying to peel back layers, Tanny don’t play that.

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