1 of 2
1
Considering “self-interest” versus “enlightened self-interest”
Posted: 20 July 2017 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24

The whole “self-interest” versus “enlightened self-interest” thing has been on my mind a lot these past months, guess it has something to do with the once great United States of American entering the America first, foremost and always era, lead by a gold plated asshole.

But, lets not digress, this afternoon I wrote some notes while out with the dog and musing on my little horse shed.  Looking at the words now, I kinda like it.  Definitely rough but that’s how they start.  I’m putting it out here, because I’m curious to see if anyone has anything interesting to add.
……………………………………………………..

Self-interest is our survival imperative

It’s our first order me, myself, and I concern.

I like most people who live a considered life, developed a personal code of ethics that I wanted to live by.  I also had a few basic goals that I wanted to strive for.  Then I set my life in a direction that would best allow for the fulfillment of those dreams.

But, there’s more to life than me, myself and I.  It’s my parents and siblings, and my parents siblings, and all their children, then come the neighbors and friends and tradesmen and merchants we deal with day to day.  The community we live in.

We are born, we are young and grow gaining experiences and knowledge and hopefully a few insights.  First it’s all about discovering ourselves and realizing who we are, the self-interested stuff.

But, with the years we discover ourselves as part of something bigger, a community and here most realize there’s a need for something other than pure self-interest.  One learns to appreciate that we need each other not just to keep ourselves honest, but to live a fulfilling life.

Enlightened self-interest takes you to a reality where you consider your impact on the greater community. 
One doesn’t get hung up on their own personal absolutism, self-certainty, because it turns out that if you deal fair and square with people, well, what goes around comes around. 

When I put in the extra effort to do a challenging job right, or if I deduct hours from my bill because I had to spend time fixing my own mistake, or I wound up dragging ass and not accomplished as much as I should have.  That’s no skin off my nose (well, yes at that moment) but people notice and like it and respect me and know they can trust me because of a long track record in this community.  I’m a nice guy because I’m naturally a nice guy, but I also appreciate that it’s a tool to further my own self-interest - because by holding others-interest pretty much in the same regard as my own - I’ve been rewarded over and over again.  Of course, it also helps not to be greedy, a minimalist attitude definitely provides more promise for a sane life.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 11:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1577
Joined  2012-04-25

Self interest is what everyone thinks Ayn Rand was about. Enlightened, or Rational, Self Interest is what she was actually about. I do think though that’s she’s turning over in her grave as we see all the fake Rand followers.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24
CuthbertJ - 21 July 2017 11:25 AM

Self interest is what everyone thinks Ayn Rand was about. Enlightened, or Rational, Self Interest is what she was actually about. I do think though that’s she’s turning over in her grave as we see all the fake Rand followers.

nonsense

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1019
Joined  2015-12-29

Considering that we can’t be certain others even exist, it’s best to just focus on you. Even if they did, most people don’t give a rats ass about you. Only do for others as much as you think they would for you. Your impact in the community will be nil, and your deeds quickly forgotten. What goes around does not come around. People get away with being awful to each other and good deeds aren’t always returned. I spent most of my life caring about others only to realize that they don’t really care about you. They like what you do for them, but one mistake or slight and they forget the goodwill.

Caring about yourself is probably the smartest thing you can do. Unfortunately it’s not a policy that can be widely adopted.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4208
Joined  2009-10-21

Oh Tita.

The Bonobo and the Atheist has been getting a little more interesting. He spends a lot of time on Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights, the three paneled painting depicting some sort of phases of life. He notes there is no god, plenty of demonic creatures, but all of them on earth. He posits that it’s we who need to determine morality, that if we don’t, or if we choose unwisely, there are consequences, we will create our own living hell.

As I get older and find lounging about is more enjoyable than ever, I realize all the time invested in relatinoships and mentoring youth is paying off. I could have burnt bridges and set a horrible example, and sometimes I did, but I did enough building have something to inhabit even after I have the ability to keep up the good fight. Sorry you haven’t experienced that Titano. Not the getting old part, but the participating in buliding part. There is quite a bit of caring for each other in nature, and humans have taken further than most.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  472
Joined  2016-10-10
CuthbertJ - 21 July 2017 11:25 AM

Self interest is what everyone thinks Ayn Rand was about. Enlightened, or Rational, Self Interest is what she was actually about. I do think though that’s she’s turning over in her grave as we see all the fake Rand followers.

Who are the fake Rand followers?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1019
Joined  2015-12-29
Lausten - 21 July 2017 06:00 PM

Oh Tita.

The Bonobo and the Atheist has been getting a little more interesting. He spends a lot of time on Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights, the three paneled painting depicting some sort of phases of life. He notes there is no god, plenty of demonic creatures, but all of them on earth. He posits that it’s we who need to determine morality, that if we don’t, or if we choose unwisely, there are consequences, we will create our own living hell.

As I get older and find lounging about is more enjoyable than ever, I realize all the time invested in relatinoships and mentoring youth is paying off. I could have burnt bridges and set a horrible example, and sometimes I did, but I did enough building have something to inhabit even after I have the ability to keep up the good fight. Sorry you haven’t experienced that Titano. Not the getting old part, but the participating in buliding part. There is quite a bit of caring for each other in nature, and humans have taken further than most.

You mean the back stabbing and the taking advantages of kindness or even taking it for granted? Oh yes I’m sure humans have taken that to a new extreme than any animal before. It’s a miracle we have lasted this long.

There is no “good fight” though, it’s just delaying the inevitable ruin we will bring upon ourselves. Man wasn’t meant to get along with each other.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 July 2017 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24

Yup, like we used to say in our cushy Junior High days “life sucks and then you die.”


good night    kiss 

I send you a hug Tito, I think you can use one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HlQiV7lKc8

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1019
Joined  2015-12-29

The majority of humans tend to be unlike how you describe them. The reality of that there is no community, but rather just people that tolerate each other at best and do some good only to avoid being seen as selfish.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  116
Joined  2017-06-24

He posits that it’s we who need to determine morality

You think we determine morality - or invent a behavior that natural selection determines to be its own version of good or bad?

There is quite a bit of caring for each other in nature, and humans have taken further than most.

Is that non-human caring equivalent to morality? Did it come about because of non-human thought processes or did evolution select brain wiring that favored “caring”?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24
Titanomachina - 22 July 2017 07:27 AM

The majority of humans tend to be unlike how you describe them. The reality of that there is no community, but rather just people that tolerate each other at best and do some good only to avoid being seen as selfish.

Titano are you familiar with the rat over population studies of John B Calhoun?
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/09-062836/en/

It’s not as simple as population density = dysfunction.
Then again there are tolerance limits.

I myself love people on a face to face work together play together basis, but we need space between us.

That’s one thing about living in a rural area, one appreciates how much we depend on each other.
It’s also why lending a hand comes easier, because we appreciate that what goes around comes around and the next time I may need some extra help.
In between we have the space to be who we want to be and not live under a constant flood of reacting to the constant incoming frenzy and boundaries that is are big city living or worse the megalopolis choking great river estuaries around the globe.  Given space the human spirit can unfold in amazing ways. 

Sadly, for all too many millions these days, I think your horror vision is probably all that lays in front of them, but that doesn’t mean it represents true humanity.  We’ve crossed thresholds into something entire foreign from all previous human experience.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24
JohnH - 22 July 2017 09:49 AM

He posits that it’s we who need to determine morality

You think we determine morality - or invent a behavior that natural selection determines to be its own version of good or bad?

There is quite a bit of caring for each other in nature, and humans have taken further than most.

Is that non-human caring equivalent to morality? Did it come about because of non-human thought processes or did evolution select brain wiring that favored “caring”?

John, in many years of visiting this forum no one here has created as much cognitive dissonance for me as you do.
You write beautifully about the human experience.
Then you make those odd anti-science comments.

(definition is in order: Anti-science also includes (or is it just anti-climate science?) refusing to support your own charges and claims when asked to do so..)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1019
Joined  2015-12-29
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 22 July 2017 10:17 AM
Titanomachina - 22 July 2017 07:27 AM

The majority of humans tend to be unlike how you describe them. The reality of that there is no community, but rather just people that tolerate each other at best and do some good only to avoid being seen as selfish.

Titano are you familiar with the rat over population studies of John B Calhoun?
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/09-062836/en/

It’s not as simple as population density = dysfunction.
Then again there are tolerance limits.

I myself love people on a face to face work together play together basis, but we need space between us.

That’s one thing about living in a rural area, one appreciates how much we depend on each other.
It’s also why lending a hand comes easier, because we appreciate that what goes around comes around and the next time I may need some extra help.
In between we have the space to be who we want to be and not live under a constant flood of reacting to the constant incoming frenzy and boundaries that is are big city living or worse the megalopolis choking great river estuaries around the globe.  Given space the human spirit can unfold in amazing ways. 

Sadly, for all too many millions these days, I think your horror vision is probably all that lays in front of them, but that doesn’t mean it represents true humanity.  We’ve crossed thresholds into something entire foreign from all previous human experience.

The human spirit is not a real phenomenon, it’s more like some religious invocation to try to paint humans as overall positive.

You say how living in a rural area shows how much we depend on each other, yet I know others for whom the opposite is the case. That living in that isolation is a blessing, and how we don’t need each other as much as we think we do. Ultimately you just have your experiences and nothing to claim as objective truth and fact.

There is no such thing as true humanity either. It seems to me you are looking at people with rose colored glasses. When it comes to a crisis you can only count on yourself, not others. We even have the bystander effect to illustrate that.

I wanted to believe in humans goodness, but it just doesn’t exist in the way we think we do. It’s a transactional basis that isn’t equal.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 July 2017 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1690
Joined  2016-12-24
Titanomachina - 22 July 2017 10:59 AM

The human spirit is not a real phenomenon.

Yeah and some will argue matter isn’t real.

I look at is as an emergent property and humans are by no means the only ones who possess that something we’re calling ‘spirit’.
I myself think there’s a direct correlation between an organism’s cognitive complexity and how much ‘spirit’ emerges from that complexity.

There are very very few people living in rural areas that are living a truly independent isolated life. 
Actually living out here, well if you’re a thoughtful person, reveals how much we are unavoidable interconnected and how much my wellbeing depends on the well being of the greater society around me.

In the end all you know is your experiences and all I know is my own experiences and observations.
I happen to have been an extremely fortunately person, between determinism, good luck, and who knows what else, I pulled off something very special considering I was slated to become another Brick In The Wall, trapped in Chicago and toiling away like a draft animal.

I can only share from the perspective of my experiences, I do so in the hope there’s something in there you can extract for yourself.
If not, it certainly won’t be my only futile endeavor - but it’s still worth making.

Best wishes.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2017 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1577
Joined  2012-04-25
Beltane - 21 July 2017 07:44 PM
CuthbertJ - 21 July 2017 11:25 AM

Self interest is what everyone thinks Ayn Rand was about. Enlightened, or Rational, Self Interest is what she was actually about. I do think though that’s she’s turning over in her grave as we see all the fake Rand followers.

Who are the fake Rand followers?

People who profess to follow her ideas but are religious, for example. I’ve heard conservatives seem to consider her ideas as their own.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2017 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1577
Joined  2012-04-25
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 21 July 2017 12:11 PM
CuthbertJ - 21 July 2017 11:25 AM

Self interest is what everyone thinks Ayn Rand was about. Enlightened, or Rational, Self Interest is what she was actually about. I do think though that’s she’s turning over in her grave as we see all the fake Rand followers.

nonsense

Good answer bub. How about a real response?

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1