8 of 9
8
The little things in life.
Posted: 22 September 2017 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 106 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4377
Joined  2014-06-20

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

 Signature 

[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 September 2017 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 107 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1026
Joined  2015-12-29
LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 September 2017 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 108 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1896
Joined  2016-12-24
Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM
LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.

Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

Okay let’s hear the argument that music is language.  I ask because I’m curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language.
Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me.

Also, I’m thinking perhaps you are confusing “understanding” with “liking”.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 September 2017 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 109 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1026
Joined  2015-12-29
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 07:12 AM
Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM
LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.

Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

Okay let’s hear the argument that music is language.  I ask because I’m curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language.
Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me.

Also, I’m thinking perhaps you are confusing “understanding” with “liking”.

I am not. Music, as some are arguing, it a method of communication. So it could be a language. But it’s not universally understood what is being communicated.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 September 2017 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 110 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1896
Joined  2016-12-24

Never thought about it too much from that direction.

But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get.  In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.

Just for the fun of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck

Communication.  Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.

(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)

[ Edited: 23 September 2017 05:52 PM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 September 2017 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 111 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1607
Joined  2010-04-22

I’m more with Titanomachina on this. Music can be thought of as language, but in the sense that people talking to each other is language. We still have English, Chinese, Swahili, etc. in a similar way that we have rock, polka, raga, etc. Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.

That said, there are a couple of musical elements that do seem to be universal. People don’t agree on happy/sad/anger in music, but I remember a study showing that people do seem to interpret intensity in similar ways - in the sense that more dissonant music can be more intense (to a point) and increasing tempo increases intensity - stuff like that. The language analogy here would be similar to listening to a person’s tone to interpret general intent in speech, not the words.

[ Edited: 23 September 2017 06:09 PM by TromboneAndrew ]
 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 September 2017 10:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 112 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1896
Joined  2016-12-24
TromboneAndrew - 23 September 2017 06:05 PM

Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.

Sure, I appreciate that.  In fact after writing the above I was thinking about oriental music and how totally different it is, for a foreigner like me it comes across rather unsettling, but my musical tastes are pretty old fashioned.  I like songs that tell stories, I hate one phrase repeated ad nausea, totally weird instrumentation only at the right time an place.  Sort of a stick in the mud.  Incidentally, that was quite the David Bowie video - Lazarus.  It’s art, it grabs you, exactly where and how is a whole nother story.  Fascinating, but not the sort of stuff I gravitate towards (see above stick in the mud reference shut eye )
re tito,
It’s more the language angle that’s confusing me.
I imagine part of it is all the writing I do.  When I think language I think exchanging concrete ideas and such .

I must expand my mind,


...  yet again.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 113 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  33
Joined  2017-10-22
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 10:58 PM

It’s more the language angle that’s confusing me.
I imagine part of it is all the writing I do.  When I think language I think exchanging concrete ideas and such .

As a picky writer and fellow stick in the mud, I hear you.  But in this case I would lump music in with art, religion, humor, and other such cultural artifacts, as forms of communication universal to all human cultures, but directed by (and arguably understandable only within) their own respective cultures.

Hmm.  I’m sure I started out with a point in there somewhere.

 Signature 

I believe that the goal of a truly moral life should be to relieve suffering and promote happiness among living beings in the real world.  By contrast, I believe that much of religious doctrine . . . glorifies suffering and condemns happiness as sin, in favor of some abstract reward in a non-existent afterlife.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 114 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  33
Joined  2017-10-22

The little things for me:  the total eclipse last August, watching a heart beating in a living body, the old guy wandering around the grocery store telling people jokes.

And other stuff, I’m sure.

 Signature 

I believe that the goal of a truly moral life should be to relieve suffering and promote happiness among living beings in the real world.  By contrast, I believe that much of religious doctrine . . . glorifies suffering and condemns happiness as sin, in favor of some abstract reward in a non-existent afterlife.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 10:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 115 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7922
Joined  2009-02-26
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 05:44 PM

Never thought about it too much from that direction.

But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get.  In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.

Just for the fun of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck

Communication.  Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.

(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)

This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn’t understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song.

Even today, when I hear a song, it’s the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention first before I listen to the words. But some singers are true “story tellers”. It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony with the music, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content.

My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion.

IMO, music is not a verbal language, it’s an emotional language.

[ Edited: 30 October 2017 10:23 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 10:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 116 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1026
Joined  2015-12-29
Write4U - 30 October 2017 10:16 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 05:44 PM

Never thought about it too much from that direction.

But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get.  In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.

Just for the fun of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck

Communication.  Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.

(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)

This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn’t understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song.

Even today, when I hear a song, it’s the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention.
But some singers are true “story tellers”. It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content.

My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion.

IMO, music is not a verbal language, it’s an emotional language.

Oh gag, there is no such thing as an emotional langauge. It’s just more of you projection onto something else.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 10:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 117 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7922
Joined  2009-02-26
Titanomachina - 30 October 2017 10:19 PM
Write4U - 30 October 2017 10:16 PM
Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 05:44 PM

Never thought about it too much from that direction.

But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get.  In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.

Just for the fun of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck

Communication.  Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.

(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)

This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn’t understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song.

Even today, when I hear a song, it’s the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention.
But some singers are true “story tellers”. It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content.

My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion.

IMO, music is not a verbal language, it’s an emotional language.

Oh gag, there is no such thing as an emotional langauge. It’s just more of you projection onto something else.

How would you know? Had any experience in the field?

I do know something about it. I do know what it feels like to connect musically with an audience.
I made my living as a musician for 10 years, playing Las Vegas, Reno, Lake Tahoe, Los Angeles, Chicago.

So gag all you wish, it is of no consequence to me, it just confirms your ignorance and refusal to listen (in more ways than one).

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 October 2017 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 118 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1026
Joined  2015-12-29

It seems you don’t understand that the connnection you feel isn’t exactly real but more like you thinking you are connecting with others. You are projecting, the same way everyone else does in a crowd or among others. The feeling of connection seems to be more of an illusion, albeit a pleasant one.

Hate to burst your bubble music man, but it’s all in your head. You can’t communicate emotions through any language. Not through music because of how subjective it is and how different people respond to the same sound (and what some consider music others find to be noise) and not through poetry. Nothing short of a mind link could let you communicate emotions.

That’s the problem with artsy types, they make their feelings out to be more than what they actually are.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2017 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 119 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7922
Joined  2009-02-26
Titanomachina - 30 October 2017 11:37 PM

It seems you don’t understand that the connnection you feel isn’t exactly real but more like you thinking you are connecting with others. You are projecting, the same way everyone else does in a crowd or among others. The feeling of connection seems to be more of an illusion, albeit a pleasant one.

Hate to burst your bubble music man, but it’s all in your head. You can’t communicate emotions through any language. Not through music because of how subjective it is and how different people respond to the same sound (and what some consider music others find to be noise) and not through poetry. Nothing short of a mind link could let you communicate emotions.

That’s the problem with artsy types, they make their feelings out to be more than what they actually are.

Which may have applied at one time, but I am now a retired bookkeeper for a large company. Not much room for feelings or artistic creativity, just numbers.

And you are right in saying it’s all in our heads. I really think it’s about time you watched this. https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2017 04:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 120 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4331
Joined  2009-10-21
Titanomachina - 30 October 2017 11:37 PM

It seems you don’t understand that the connnection you feel isn’t exactly real but more like you thinking you are connecting with others. You are projecting, the same way everyone else does in a crowd or among others. The feeling of connection seems to be more of an illusion, albeit a pleasant one.

Hate to burst your bubble music man, but it’s all in your head. You can’t communicate emotions through any language. Not through music because of how subjective it is and how different people respond to the same sound (and what some consider music others find to be noise) and not through poetry. Nothing short of a mind link could let you communicate emotions.

That’s the problem with artsy types, they make their feelings out to be more than what they actually are.

Let me interpret Tita language for the new people.

You just think thoughts and feel feelings. Your brain makes this happen. Your brain then uses words to label things. If you say anything else, you’re making it up, again, using your brain. That’s it. That’s all there is.

Profile
 
 
   
8 of 9
8