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Posted: 22 September 2017 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 106 ]
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Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

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Posted: 22 September 2017 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 107 ]
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LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

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Posted: 23 September 2017 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 108 ]
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Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM
LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.

Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

Okay let’s hear the argument that music is language.  I ask because I’m curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language.
Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me.

Also, I’m thinking perhaps you are confusing “understanding” with “liking”.

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Posted: 23 September 2017 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 109 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 23 September 2017 07:12 AM
Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM
LoisL - 22 September 2017 10:10 AM

Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.

It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn’t make that the case exactly.

It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.

Titanomachina - 22 September 2017 12:15 PM

Even then the argument could only be made that it’s a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it’s not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.

Okay let’s hear the argument that music is language.  I ask because I’m curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language.
Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me.

Also, I’m thinking perhaps you are confusing “understanding” with “liking”.

I am not. Music, as some are arguing, it a method of communication. So it could be a language. But it’s not universally understood what is being communicated.

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Posted: 23 September 2017 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 110 ]
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Never thought about it too much from that direction.

But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get.  In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.

Just for the fun of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck

Communication.  Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.

(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)

[ Edited: 23 September 2017 05:52 PM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 23 September 2017 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 111 ]
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I’m more with Titanomachina on this. Music can be thought of as language, but in the sense that people talking to each other is language. We still have English, Chinese, Swahili, etc. in a similar way that we have rock, polka, raga, etc. Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.

That said, there are a couple of musical elements that do seem to be universal. People don’t agree on happy/sad/anger in music, but I remember a study showing that people do seem to interpret intensity in similar ways - in the sense that more dissonant music can be more intense (to a point) and increasing tempo increases intensity - stuff like that. The language analogy here would be similar to listening to a person’s tone to interpret general intent in speech, not the words.

[ Edited: 23 September 2017 06:09 PM by TromboneAndrew ]
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Posted: 23 September 2017 10:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 112 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 23 September 2017 06:05 PM

Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.

Sure, I appreciate that.  In fact after writing the above I was thinking about oriental music and how totally different it is, for a foreigner like me it comes across rather unsettling, but my musical tastes are pretty old fashioned.  I like songs that tell stories, I hate one phrase repeated ad nausea, totally weird instrumentation only at the right time an place.  Sort of a stick in the mud.  Incidentally, that was quite the David Bowie video - Lazarus.  It’s art, it grabs you, exactly where and how is a whole nother story.  Fascinating, but not the sort of stuff I gravitate towards (see above stick in the mud reference shut eye )
re tito,
It’s more the language angle that’s confusing me.
I imagine part of it is all the writing I do.  When I think language I think exchanging concrete ideas and such .

I must expand my mind,


...  yet again.

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