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The Problem With Mental Illness.
Posted: 23 August 2017 07:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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LoisL - 23 August 2017 07:09 PM

If we weren’t all of the same species, no mater what color, we wouldn’t have been able to produce offspring. The same is true of Neanderthals. Modern humans would have no Neanderthal genes if we were of different species.

LL

Which is why I said sub-species. That’s the same species.

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Posted: 23 August 2017 07:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Beltane - 22 August 2017 07:56 AM
LoisL - 20 August 2017 12:06 AM

Not normal by whose standard?

To some degree, everyone’s. Self segregation is an evolved behavior.

Completely evasive answer. You use some personally developed standard, then you judge everyone else as if your standard is their standard.

“Race” doesn’t mean anything. It was a made up term and once we tried to define it with any precision, we found out it didn’t exist. If you want to use the term, define it. Anyway you try to, we will show you how there are no differences based on the lines you draw.

Have you heard of these things where you swab your cheek and find out all the different continents and countries where your ancestors come from? Are those all wrong? Are you aware of anyone who has 100% from within even a 1,000 mile radius?

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Posted: 25 August 2017 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Lausten - 23 August 2017 07:30 PM
Beltane - 22 August 2017 07:56 AM
LoisL - 20 August 2017 12:06 AM

Not normal by whose standard?

To some degree, everyone’s. Self segregation is an evolved behavior.

Completely evasive answer. You use some personally developed standard, then you judge everyone else as if your standard is their standard.

Standards have nothing to do with it, self segregation is a fact of human nature. There are varying degrees of the behavior in both groups and individuals.

“Race” doesn’t mean anything. It was a made up term and once we tried to define it with any precision, we found out it didn’t exist. If you want to use the term, define it. Anyway you try to, we will show you how there are no differences based on the lines you draw.

Races are population groups that evolved in differing ecological niches. The folk classifications of race are fairly accurate: Western Eurasia - Caucasoid, Eastern Eurasia and the Americas - Mongoloid, Sub-Saharan Africa and Australasia - Negroid.  Maybe the term has too much baggage, but it exists.

Have you heard of these things where you swab your cheek and find out all the different continents and countries where your ancestors come from? Are those all wrong?

I know of them and have heard good and bad things about their accuracy. I tried one and the results corresponded with what I expected.

Are you aware of anyone who has 100% from within even a 1,000 mile radius?

Yes.

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Posted: 25 August 2017 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Race as a term has meaning for you because you don’t care about what things really mean, you just want simple definitions. If it really had a biological definition, you could find one and link to it.

Now, please tell me where these people, descended from ancestors who haven’t migrated for thousands of years, live. Do they have names? Can I email one of them?

I think you are confusing myth with reality. It’s true that cultures all have their origin stories, and they claim some pure beginning and pure line, but it’s not true. The non-mixing you believe is common never lasts for more than a few hundred years, then something scrambles us again. But the myths, sure, those keep happening.

[ Edited: 25 August 2017 06:56 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 25 August 2017 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Lausten - 25 August 2017 05:12 PM

Race as a term has meaning for you because you don’t care about what things really mean, you just want simple definitions. If it really had a biological definition, you could find one and link to it.

Now, please tell me where these people, descended from ancestors who haven’t migrated for thousands of years, live. Do they have names? Can I email one of them?

I think you are confusing myth with reality. It’s true that cultures all have their origin stories, and they claim some pure beginning and pure line, but it’s not true. The non-mixing you believe is common never lasts for more than a few hundred years, then something scrambles us again. But the myths, sure, those keep happening.

Reread my post and notice I didn’t say anybody is pure. The fact is purity isn’t necessary for race - or whatever name you’d rather use for population variation - to exist.

Here is someone who may be able to explain race in a way that’s more tolerable to you.

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Posted: 26 August 2017 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Beltane - 19 August 2017 03:13 PM
Advocatus - 19 August 2017 06:23 AM
Beltane - 18 August 2017 09:46 AM
Advocatus - 18 August 2017 09:29 AM

When people segregate into enclaves, it’s generally because of language and culture, not race. They originally did so because of people like you who tried to give them a hard time for being “different”.

Race and culture are strongly linked, language is less so but it still makes a difference. And self-segregation is an evolved behavior in humans, it happens even under the best social conditions.

Yes and no.  It’s true that there is a connection between race and culture, but there isn’t a single “black culture” any more than there’s a single “white culture”.  It depends on where you come from—Nigeria, Mozambique, Haiti, Chicago?  And what of white immigrants from say Poland or Russia?  It’s their language that separates them from American culture, not the color of their skin.

The point is all cultures are different from each other and race is a major reason for that.

And it’s true that it’s natural for people to self-segregate to some extent, but we also segregate by sex, don’t we?  Don’t men prefer to spend their leisure time in sports bars with other men?  Would anyone suggest that a man who wanted to marry a woman was suffering from mental illness?

That’s much different, men marrying women is completely normal. People of different races hanging out together is not really normal.


Are you an American?

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

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Posted: 26 August 2017 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Beltane - 25 August 2017 08:45 PM

Reread my post and notice I didn’t say anybody is pure. The fact is purity isn’t necessary for race - or whatever name you’d rather use for population variation - to exist.

Here is someone who may be able to explain race in a way that’s more tolerable to you.

I read your posts when you are responding to me, and what is consistent, is you don’t define terms. You keep things undefined, so you can pivot however you want. I asked for specific evidence of a race of people, first you said you had heard of one, then you couldn’t produce it, so you changed to linking an article that says you aren’t a crank. It also says things like, “What does this imply in terms of morals and ethics? Nothing.” and “How humans came about is less important than the fact that we are all human.” and “Race may be a biological myth, but there is no unanimous consensus.”

The differences the article talks about are either very old mixing of the different human sub-species or the more recent differences in hair color or lactose intolerance. Last I heard, no mother has complained that their son was marrying a lactose intolerant woman. If this article is the best you can do, you’ve just proved how weak your statements have been up to now.

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Posted: 26 August 2017 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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LoisL - 26 August 2017 02:49 AM
Beltane - 19 August 2017 03:13 PM
Advocatus - 19 August 2017 06:23 AM
Beltane - 18 August 2017 09:46 AM
Advocatus - 18 August 2017 09:29 AM

When people segregate into enclaves, it’s generally because of language and culture, not race. They originally did so because of people like you who tried to give them a hard time for being “different”.

Race and culture are strongly linked, language is less so but it still makes a difference. And self-segregation is an evolved behavior in humans, it happens even under the best social conditions.

Yes and no.  It’s true that there is a connection between race and culture, but there isn’t a single “black culture” any more than there’s a single “white culture”.  It depends on where you come from—Nigeria, Mozambique, Haiti, Chicago?  And what of white immigrants from say Poland or Russia?  It’s their language that separates them from American culture, not the color of their skin.

The point is all cultures are different from each other and race is a major reason for that.

And it’s true that it’s natural for people to self-segregate to some extent, but we also segregate by sex, don’t we?  Don’t men prefer to spend their leisure time in sports bars with other men?  Would anyone suggest that a man who wanted to marry a woman was suffering from mental illness?

That’s much different, men marrying women is completely normal. People of different races hanging out together is not really normal.


Are you an American?

I am.

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Posted: 26 August 2017 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Lausten - 26 August 2017 06:45 AM
Beltane - 25 August 2017 08:45 PM

Reread my post and notice I didn’t say anybody is pure. The fact is purity isn’t necessary for race - or whatever name you’d rather use for population variation - to exist.

Here is someone who may be able to explain race in a way that’s more tolerable to you.

I read your posts when you are responding to me, and what is consistent, is you don’t define terms. You keep things undefined, so you can pivot however you want.

Jesus H Christ pay attention, this is how I defined race above:

Races are population groups that evolved in differing ecological niches

I asked for specific evidence of a race of people, first you said you had heard of one, then you couldn’t produce it, so you changed to linking an article that says you aren’t a crank. It also says things like, “What does this imply in terms of morals and ethics? Nothing.” and “How humans came about is less important than the fact that we are all human.” and “Race may be a biological myth, but there is no unanimous consensus.”

I’m assuming you saw this paragraph and chart in the link:
F2.large_.jpg

Assertion: Because most genetic variation occurs within races, two random individuals from different races may be genetically closer than two random individuals from the same race.

The image above, from a 2009 paper, is one of the clearest refutations of such assertions. An evolutionary chart, or phylogeny, of human population is not difficult to construct. Multiple different genetic methodologies have converged upon the same general pattern of Africans differentiating from non-Africans, and West Eurasians differentiating from East Eurasians, and so forth. Why? Though on any given gene, one may be more similar to an individual from some distant population than an individual from the same population, when looking at the average across many genes, there is a clear pattern whereby individuals from the same populations tend to share variants in common.

The differences the article talks about are either very old mixing of the different human sub-species or the more recent differences in hair color or lactose intolerance.

Well, there you go. Race.

Last I heard, no mother has complained that their son was marrying a lactose intolerant woman. If this article is the best you can do, you’ve just proved how weak your statements have been up to now.

Maybe not but mothers are known to complain about the appearance of their sons’ girlfriends, and “race” plays a big part in that, obviously.

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Posted: 26 August 2017 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Do you understand that chart? What is PC1?
besides, you’re cherry picking

If you read the study where the chart came from, it says this

Modern studies of genetic variation, including this one, have supported Darwin’s observation, showing that most common variants are shared widely among human populations (Altshuler et al. 2005; Jakobsson et al. 2008). Our data confirm what Darwin believed: We found not a single SNP locus, out of nearly 250,000, at which a fixed difference would distinguish any pair of continental populations. In addition, because population affiliation is not a reliable predictor of an individual’s specific genotype or haplotype, a self-identified population is at best loosely correlated with disease phenotypes (Jorde and Wooding 2004; Race, Ethnicity, and Genetics Working Group 2005). Nevertheless, the partial isolation of human populations through time has produced a correlation between geographic ancestry and genetic similarity.

[ Edited: 27 August 2017 07:55 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 03 September 2017 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I don’t have anything to add here, but last year I heard an amazing news story that I think does belong in this discussion.

For Centuries, A Small Town Has Embraced Strangers With Mental Illness
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/01/484083305/for-centuries-a-small-town-has-embraced-strangers-with-mental-illness

July 1, 2016

At the center of Geel, a charming Belgian town less than an hour’s drive from of Antwerp, is a church dedicated to Dymphna, a saint believed to have the power to cure mental disorders. It’s a medieval church with stone arches, spires and a half-built bell tower, and it has inspired an unusual centuries-old practice: For over 700 years, residents of Geel have been accepting people with mental disorders, often very severe mental disorders, into their homes and caring for them.

It isn’t meant to be a treatment or therapy. The people are not called patients, but guests or boarders. They go to Geel and join households to share a life with people who can watch over them. Today, there are about 250 boarders in Geel. One of them is a Flemish man named Luc Ennekans. He’s slim and has green eyes, and he’s 51 years old. NPR’s Lulu Miller went to Geel and met him and his host family there and reported this story for Invisibilia.

Like all of the guests in the town today, Ennekans first went to a public psychiatric hospital in Geel that manages the boarder program. Ennekans saw medical professionals and received treatment and an evaluation. Then he was paired with a household. His hosts, Toni Smit and Arthur Shouten, say that living with Ennekans was rough at the start. ...

... The Belgian government pays 40 euros (less than $45) per boarder per day to support the practice, less than half of which goes to the foster family to cover living expenses.

Still, the tradition persists, in large part because Geelians are proud of it. In a 1962 survey of Geel foster families, American psychiatrist Matthew Dumont found that their main reason for accepting boarders was custom. Roosens and Van De Walle describe the program as part of Geel’s heritage. It’s part of the town’s identity. But, they write, that may not be enough to sustain the program.

Invisibilia co-host Lulu Miller contributed to this report. For more on experiments in community-based housing and support, see our story on Mr. Kitt, a man who lived on the streets of New York City for decades before finding a home, health and art at Broadway Housing Communities.

ljhg

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