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Moses identified as Crown Prince Tuthmosis
Posted: 05 September 2017 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]
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My conclusion, from the information below:

1.  Manetho: Moses rebelled against Amenophis who had a famous scribe of the same name (Amenhtep III = A3).
2.  Artapanus: Moses was the only heir to the throne, i.e. Crown Prince (CP) Tuthmosis.
3.  Artapanus: Moses was involved in the first burial ceremony of the Apis bull, as was CP Tuthmosis.
4.  Manetho: Moses sent messengers to the Hyksos kings of Jerusalem, summoning them to come to his aid in his war against A3. El Arish Shrine Text: it was the king’s son who sent the messengers to the Asiatics in their land (also mentions 9 days of darkness, etc). The Story of Joseph and Asenath: the same narrative, but from the Israeli side. They describe how the Egyptian king’s eldest son (i.e. CP Tuthmosis) twice sent messengers to them, summoning them to come to his aid in his war against his father. As in the previous two accounts, they complied and invaded Egypt.

Don’t you think there is a possibility that Moses could have been CP Tuthmosis, based purely on this information?

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Posted: 05 September 2017 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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When I try to google Moses and Tuthmosis, I get hits on your work, and some blogs. What are your sources?

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Posted: 05 September 2017 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The sources are all listed in my book (Bibliography 202, 1169 references). This is where it gets a bit tricky - I do not want to convince you to buy the book - you’ll just have to trust me that the information is well referenced.

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Posted: 05 September 2017 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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PS: Bed-time in South Africa. I’ll post the references here tomorrow.

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Posted: 05 September 2017 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. The year Egypt sued the Hittites for peace, so it was a year or two after the fall of Hittite Empire that Abraham came to agreement with Ramses II and moved into the Canaan from 40 years in the desert.
 
That would put the exodus around 1302.
 
Another point is that the timeline of the Hyksos having come to the Middle Kingdom is around 1700. Then leaving around 1500 because of a plague of leprosy. 
 
You might keep up with the latest finding on Avaris, the capital of the Hyksos’s Middle Kingdom.
 
Also, six months ago China changed their history and is now floating the idea that they are the Hyksos who left Egypt. So, I would be looking for China to be answering you puzzle. I bet they will find the Port of Perunefer. That would answer a lot of the questions.

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Posted: 06 September 2017 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Lausten - 05 September 2017 12:24 PM

When I try to google Moses and Tuthmosis, I get hits on your work, and some blogs. What are your sources?

1. Josephus: Against Apion 1.26 (227-251)

2. Correction - not Artapanus but Josephus: Antiquities 2.9.7 (232-237)

3. Artapanus, from Eusebius – Praeparatio Evangelica (Gifford), 9.27,

  “…having given the name Apis to a bull, commanded the troops to found a temple for him, and bade them bring and bury there the animals which had been consecrated by Moses, because he wished to bury the inventions of Moses in oblivion”
  CP Tuthmosis: Amarna Sunset (Dodson), pp. 4, 15

4. Manetho: Josephus Against Apion 1.26 (241)
  El Arish Shrine Text:  Francis Llewellyn Griffith and Édouard Naville, The Mound of the Jew and the City of Onias, London: Kegan Paul, Trentch, Trubner & Co., 1887, pp. 71-73
  The Story of Joseph and Asenath (see Mark Goodacre’s translation, XXIII, XXIV)
 

Incidentally, according to Manetho, Amenhotep III confronted the armies of Moses and the invaders, but the decided to retreat into Ethiopia for a period of 13 years.  Amenhotep’s prolonged stay in Ethiopia is attested to by scarabs of him found in that country [Amenhotep III – Perspectives on his Reign (O’Connor), pp. 11-12], rock carvings at Soleb depicting him as weak and sickly (effectively proving that he was in Ethiopia at that time) and numerous of his monuments being scattered all over the country[A History of Ancient Egypt (Grimal), pp. 223-225].

Furthermore, we have three accounts of the Egyptian army ‘disappearing’ - in the Bible it was supposedly drowned in the sea, in the El Arish text king Shu and his army ‘departed to heaven’, and Manetho’s account reveals the actual event - Amenhotep and his army had retreated into Ethiopia.

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Posted: 06 September 2017 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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MikeYohe - 05 September 2017 02:40 PM

The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. .

Where are your sources for this? Has Moses as an individual been identified? You did not reply to my original post - is there something wrong with my arguments?

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Posted: 06 September 2017 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Flavius Josephus, could have guessed that. You are reading things like Artapanus and taking them as if they are scholarly works by modern historians. They are source documents from history, written centuries after the events they presume to be discussing, with no basis for their accuracy. They say more about the authors and their time than they do about any actual events in history.

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Posted: 06 September 2017 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Could they independently have dreamt up the same story, from different perspectives? Do you think Josephus deliberately lied about Manetho’s version of events? And the El Arish Shrine Text - did Josephus or Artapanus carve out these hieroglyphics? You claim that there is no basis for their accuracy - what proof do you have for this? I have just demonstrated that regarding some key events, there probably is.

By the way, Josephus had access to much older works, now lost. His information would have been much more accurate than what modern scholars have to try to piece together today.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Okay, that last statement is completely illogical. You are giving him credit simply for being alive in an earlier time. If the works are “now lost” you can’t evaluate them. If you have something from the actual time of the events, there is a higher probability it will be “more accurate”, but they still have to be considered in context. But you don’t have those, so it doesn’t matter.

Manetho claims a sacred book written by the god Hermes as a source. El-Arish is dated a 1000 years after Moses. I can’t read hieroglyphics but I wouldn’t go to you or any of these authors you are using for help, because you haven’t established credibility with me. You haven’t shown that you know how to demonstrate historical truth.

Sorry. I see you have put a lot of work into this, but at best, you have a History channel documentary here. One that scholars would dismiss.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Lausten - 07 September 2017 06:14 AM

Okay, that last statement is completely illogical. You are giving him credit simply for being alive in an earlier time. If the works are “now lost” you can’t evaluate them. If you have something from the actual time of the events, there is a higher probability it will be “more accurate”, but they still have to be considered in context. But you don’t have those, so it doesn’t matter.

Manetho claims a sacred book written by the god Hermes as a source. El-Arish is dated a 1000 years after Moses. I can’t read hieroglyphics but I wouldn’t go to you or any of these authors you are using for help, because you haven’t established credibility with me. You haven’t shown that you know how to demonstrate historical truth.

Sorry. I see you have put a lot of work into this, but at best, you have a History channel documentary here. One that scholars would dismiss.

What has become of common sense and logic? Let’s leave it at that.

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Posted: 07 September 2017 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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We obviously have different ideas about what those words mean, so where we are currently “at” is not understanding each other. You initiated this conversation by acknowledging that your ideas are not accepted by scholars. I don’t think I’ve said anything worse than that. There are cases where non-scholars have found things that were eventually accepted in the consensus, so your life’s work is up to you.

There may be other ways to view the value of what you’ve done. As a Christian, I studied the Bible. When I realized I was going about it all wrong, and that belief was part of the problem, I didn’t completely walk away from all that I’d discovered. Instead I look at the Bible as mythology. It’s not a popular idea, but it’s my thing.
http://www.milepost100.com

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Posted: 07 September 2017 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I appreciate your work Riaan. At the very least you seem to be making an honest effort to understand things versus the usual Christian who just takes what they’ve been told. The problem however with any thing like this is that the source information is so completely unreliable as to be almost useless. Or at best it gives a slightly greater that 50% chance of being accurate. Even if three people tell the same exact story doesn’t mean much. Think of reporting today. Given some event, you can watch a news story on TV, read about it online, in a printed magazine, etc. and get different accounts. And that’s with people having access to video, modern technology, etc. No matter what there’s always the telephone effect. And now go back several thousand years…the effect is magnified a hundred fold. Point being, only a sliver of truth is likely in any historical documents from that time period.

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Posted: 08 September 2017 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Riaan - 06 September 2017 11:28 AM
MikeYohe - 05 September 2017 02:40 PM

The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. .

Where are your sources for this? Has Moses as an individual been identified? You did not reply to my original post - is there something wrong with my arguments?

Nothing wrong with your original post. I just don’t know anything about the people you are talking about. I like history. As far as Moses in 1259. They have the records of Egypt suing the Hittites for peace. The battle itself is taught at West Point. A military school in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian–Hittite_peace_treaty 
 
My understanding is that the all the Egyptian pharaohs had a title of Moses. It was a title and not a name. It means “to bring forth”.  Different pharaohs brought forth different items, like goodness, happiness, you get the idea. The guy that “brought forth people from Egypt” I don’t think we know his name.
 
It is my understanding that the Egyptians were fighting over the olive orchards in Syria, in the area of the Egyptian port of bible. And Moses wanted to go to Israel because of the olive trees. The Hyksos had brought with them the hybrid olive and the technology of grafting. Olive oil was a changing factor in the lives of all the people and changed the wealth of countries. Trouble was that the olive trees did not grow in climate of Egypt as we know Egypt today.

[ Edited: 08 September 2017 02:50 PM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 09 September 2017 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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The identification of CP Tuthmosis is not based only on the references I gave above.

1.    Ahmed Osman argued that the biblical Joesph and Yuya, who served A3, were one and the same person. The main objection to this? His daughter Tiye, A3’s Great Royal Wife for 37 years, is not mentioned in the Bible. The Story of Joseph and Asenath again provides this confirmation: Joseph and Asenath ‘ruled Egypt’ for 48 years. A queen related to Joseph therefore ruled Egypt for 4 to 5 decades. Furthermore, Manetho recorded that Joseph and Moses were contemporaries and Justin that Moses was Joseph’s son. CP Tuthmosis was Yuya’s grandson, and not his son, but was also a contemporary of his grandfather.

2.  David Rohl identified the biblical Saul and David as the Amarna contemporaries Labayu and Dadua, but unfortunately attempted to use this information to move the well-attested Amarna era much later in time to ca. 1000 BCE, generally assumed to be the era of Israel’s United Kingdom. However, if you move Saul and David (and, therefore, Solomon) earlier in time, to the Amarna era, a whole new scenario develops. Scholars seem to universally agree that the land of Sheba, from where the Queen of Sheba came, was located at Marib in Yemen. Would this queen and her entourage and army etc really have travelled 4000 km to Jerusalem and back, an arduous journey over a rugged and arid terrain, just to pop a few questions to Solomon? It borders on stupidity to believe that.

By contrast, Josephus calls het the Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia. Should we once again (as you do) write this episode in the Bible off as pure legend? In this case, we can’t. The Megiddo Ivory depicts an Egyptian queen with an Amarna style crown visiting a Canaanite king on a throne, resembling Solomon’s.  Many aspects of this late Bronze Age (i.e. the Amarna era) carved image match details of the History of the Queen of Sheba, which I suppose you would also describe as an invention. The narrative of the History of the Queen of Sheba in turn matches many aspects of Manetho’s account of the revolt against A3.

As related above, Moses as the king’s eldest son sent messengers to the Hyksos rulers in Jerusalem. Likewise, messengers were sent back and forth between Solomon and his Queen, before she eventually came. One can imagine that they would never have dared attack the mightiest army in the region, that of Egypt, without receiving proper assurances that it would be safe to do so. A person called Sheba was David’s fiercest enemy and it would seem that Bathsheba, his daughter, sent her infant girl (who was of Hittite and Hebrew blood) to Yuya in Egypt for protection against David – see the History of the Queen of Sheba.

A scene from the Amarna tomb of Ay is described as follows:

“ We have already noticed that each great house, whether royal or private, seemed to possess a band of female musicians. As the women shown here are all busily engaged in the practice of music and dancing, and the walls both of the hall and the closets are hung with musical instruments of all kinds, we must conclude that this was a prominent part of the duties or recreations of the women of the house. The instruments include the lyre, the lute, the triangular harp, and the standing harp and lyre. It will be noticed that the women in the upper room of both houses have a peculiar mode of wearing the hair, by dividing it into one or more tresses curling at the ends . Nor is this mere négligé, for the women in the rooms below wear the hair in an ordinary Egyptian mode. This lock or tress is quite un-Egyptian, but is familiar to us in men (and women) of Hittite race and known also in Syrian women.”

The queen on the Megiddo ivory is accompanied by a Hittite lyrist, and in the so-called Zannanza affair, a recently widowed Egyptian queen (Nefertiti,  Reeves) wrote to the king of the Hittites, asking him for a son to become her husband and king of Egypt, as she had no sons of her own and she would not marry a servant, i.e. an Egyptian. The only female queen of Egypt who could ever have found herself in circumstances that would allow such a request was Nefertiti.

Nefertiti, therefore, clearly had a connection to the Hittites.

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Posted: 09 September 2017 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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The Bible is a religious tract not a historical document, trying to “prove” any part of it is highly problematic. It was created for short term religious purposes not to accurately record events from that time.

Even the existence of someone much more prominent in the religious world like Jesus Christ is proving very difficult, the further back researchers go the less evidence there is he even existed.

So basically what we’re dealing with here is mythological figures that have been literalized for religious and political reasons.

Would you begin a search for the literal origins of Zeus or Odin, doing so with Moses is approaching that scale. Trying to turn the metaphorical into the literal produces meaningless results and anyone who understands what religion actual is understands it is almost entirely metaphorical in nature.

[ Edited: 09 September 2017 11:08 AM by DougC ]
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