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Moses identified as Crown Prince Tuthmosis
Posted: 24 September 2017 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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deros - 14 September 2017 01:58 PM

What is all this fuss?  Everyone today knows Charlton Heston was Moses.

Exactly and the Israelites kicked Philistine butt because they all had handguns and AR-15s.

Moses from the Mount

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Posted: 25 September 2017 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I always was suspicious of the name “Moses”.  The King James Bible tried to make out that it was from the Hebrew “masheh”, but that always seemed far-fetched.

I think the confusion is arising from the fact that we generally think of Moses as a mythical folk hero invented by the Israelites.  The “exodus” never really happened, at least the way it was described in the Bible (a million slaves rebelling against Egypt and leaving for the Promised Land).

Wasn’t Thutmose an Egyptian, not a Hebrew?  You seem to be talking about the Thera volcanic eruption, and then some kind of exodus.  Where did Thutmose go on his exodus?  If he was following the light and ash cloud of Thera, he’d be going North toward the delta, wouldn’t he?  Wouldn’t he want to go AWAY from the tsunami?  I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I’m not sure what you’re proposing.

Now… if you’re suggesting is that the Israelites heard stories about Thutmose and used that story to create their own folk hero to explain their mythical “exodus” to the Promise Land, that could be plausible.  But to say that Thutmose and Moses were literally the same person, that’s what I’m not sure about.

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Posted: 25 September 2017 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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It seems that I have been kicked off this topic, so I cannot reply.

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Posted: 25 September 2017 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Riaan - 25 September 2017 07:36 AM

It seems that I have been kicked off this topic, so I cannot reply.

We can’t kick people off topics, and indeed if you’re posting in the thread then you can post in the thread. I’m not sure what you’re seeing but it’s most likely a glitch in the website software.

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Posted: 25 September 2017 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Thanks Doug, I tried to reply to earlier posts without success and eventually gave up.

Advocatus, there is no short answer to your questions. Osman argues that the biblical Joseph and Yuya, Amenhotep III’s highest official, were one and the same person. This seems to be confirmed by the Story of Joseph and Asenath, in which Joseph and Asenath ruled Egypt for 48 years. It was not Joseph’s wife, but his daughter, who was queen of Egypt for several decades. Amenhotep III married the daughter of Yuya, Tiye, and their firstborn son was Crown Prince Tuthmosis. He would, therefore, have been half-Jewish. Justin, for example, claimed that Moses was the son of Joseph. CP Tuthmosis was the grandson, and not the son, of Joseph.

Manetho mentions two exoduses of the Hebrews (he identifies them as the Hyksos). The ancients also remembered two floods which devastated the Mediterranean, namely the flood of Ogygus, which they place during the reign of Ahmose I, and the flood of Deucalion, which they place 250 years later. Some Hebrew historians associated Moses with the flood of Ogygus, and others associate him with the flood of Deucalion. Modern dating techniques place the first eruption around 1600 BCE, which is close to Ahmose’s reign, and 250 years later would take us to 1350 BCE, towards the end of the reign of Amenhotep III.

Exodus I: The Hyksos were already at war with Egypt and the first eruption with its tsunami would have weakened their defenses too such an extent that they realized they had to abandon Avaris. The vast majority of them (240 000 according to Manetho/ Josephus, 600 000 according to Exodus) escaped by wading through the Sea of Reeds (not the Red Sea) away from Avaris, in a north-western direction. The only way they would have been able to maintain direction would have been to walk towards the eruption cloud of Thera on the horizon, a white cloud by day and a red glow by night. Once they reached the coast, they turned eastward (actually confirmed as such in Exodus) and walked all the way along they beach, specifically along the sand ridges which separate Lakes Manzala and Bardawil from the sea. These would have been the ‘path through the sea’ which Moses supposedly created. These sand ridges were approximately 300-600 m wide, easily allowing thousands of people to escape to freedom.

Exodus II: By this time many Hebrews had been enslaved by Egyptian rulers (Ahmose I, those who remained at Avaris to allow the bulk of the population to escape), and others captured and brought to Egypt by for instance Tuthmosis III. He, specifically, used to bring entire peoples with everything they had to serve as slaves to the Egyptian people. Thera erupted a second time, leading to a plague which devastated Egypt (Amenhotep III for example had hundreds of statues erected in honour of Sekhmet, the goddess of destruction, with the obvious intent of placating her). When this did not work, he ordered the sacrifice of the firstborn of Egypt in fires (a heathen practice, but probably seen as the only way out), and CP Tuthmosis would have been first in line to die. He nevertheless escaped (the burning bush episode), and when the sacrifice had no effect on the plague, Egypt rejected the priesthood of Amun and rebelled against Amenhotep III under the leadership of CP Tuthmosis / Moses.  In the original post (see above) I argue that CP Tuthmosis must have been the biblical Moses for a number of reasons which in my opinion cannot be refuted, and that is what most of the discussions have been focused on. Hope this clarifies the issue. PS: The rebels had control over Egypt for about 13 years, after which the EGyptian army returned from Ethiopia and Moses with his rebels had to flee Egypt.

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Posted: 25 September 2017 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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dougsmith - 25 September 2017 08:57 AM
Riaan - 25 September 2017 07:36 AM

It seems that I have been kicked off this topic, so I cannot reply.

We can’t kick people off topics, and indeed if you’re posting in the thread then you can post in the thread. I’m not sure what you’re seeing but it’s most likely a glitch in the website software.

Or it could be a glitch in his computer or server.

Lois

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Posted: 02 October 2017 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Riaan - 25 September 2017 11:00 AM

Thanks Doug, I tried to reply to earlier posts without success and eventually gave up.

Advocatus, there is no short answer to your questions. Osman argues that the biblical Joseph and Yuya, Amenhotep III’s highest official, were one and the same person. This seems to be confirmed by the Story of Joseph and Asenath, in which Joseph and Asenath ruled Egypt for 48 years. It was not Joseph’s wife, but his daughter, who was queen of Egypt for several decades. Amenhotep III married the daughter of Yuya, Tiye, and their firstborn son was Crown Prince Tuthmosis. He would, therefore, have been half-Jewish. Justin, for example, claimed that Moses was the son of Joseph. CP Tuthmosis was the grandson, and not the son, of Joseph.

Manetho mentions two exoduses of the Hebrews (he identifies them as the Hyksos). The ancients also remembered two floods which devastated the Mediterranean, namely the flood of Ogygus, which they place during the reign of Ahmose I, and the flood of Deucalion, which they place 250 years later. Some Hebrew historians associated Moses with the flood of Ogygus, and others associate him with the flood of Deucalion. Modern dating techniques place the first eruption around 1600 BCE, which is close to Ahmose’s reign, and 250 years later would take us to 1350 BCE, towards the end of the reign of Amenhotep III.

Exodus I: The Hyksos were already at war with Egypt and the first eruption with its tsunami would have weakened their defenses too such an extent that they realized they had to abandon Avaris. The vast majority of them (240 000 according to Manetho/ Josephus, 600 000 according to Exodus) escaped by wading through the Sea of Reeds (not the Red Sea) away from Avaris, in a north-western direction. The only way they would have been able to maintain direction would have been to walk towards the eruption cloud of Thera on the horizon, a white cloud by day and a red glow by night. Once they reached the coast, they turned eastward (actually confirmed as such in Exodus) and walked all the way along they beach, specifically along the sand ridges which separate Lakes Manzala and Bardawil from the sea. These would have been the ‘path through the sea’ which Moses supposedly created. These sand ridges were approximately 300-600 m wide, easily allowing thousands of people to escape to freedom.

Exodus II: By this time many Hebrews had been enslaved by Egyptian rulers (Ahmose I, those who remained at Avaris to allow the bulk of the population to escape), and others captured and brought to Egypt by for instance Tuthmosis III. He, specifically, used to bring entire peoples with everything they had to serve as slaves to the Egyptian people. Thera erupted a second time, leading to a plague which devastated Egypt (Amenhotep III for example had hundreds of statues erected in honour of Sekhmet, the goddess of destruction, with the obvious intent of placating her). When this did not work, he ordered the sacrifice of the firstborn of Egypt in fires (a heathen practice, but probably seen as the only way out), and CP Tuthmosis would have been first in line to die. He nevertheless escaped (the burning bush episode), and when the sacrifice had no effect on the plague, Egypt rejected the priesthood of Amun and rebelled against Amenhotep III under the leadership of CP Tuthmosis / Moses.  In the original post (see above) I argue that CP Tuthmosis must have been the biblical Moses for a number of reasons which in my opinion cannot be refuted, and that is what most of the discussions have been focused on. Hope this clarifies the issue. PS: The rebels had control over Egypt for about 13 years, after which the EGyptian army returned from Ethiopia and Moses with his rebels had to flee Egypt.

 
About the Hyksos. I have read where Avaris was the winter location for the Hyksos king. And also the capital for the land of Goshen. Worth noting, but not to have full backing due to lack of evidence. Never have I heard that the Hyksos were not more advanced than the Egyptians.
 
The questions I have is, what land did the Hyksos come from? One of the main forms of money before and after coins come into play in the area was the Cowry Shell. Did the Hyksos control the Cowry Shells from India? The big item is the leprosy. I have read where the Hyksos left Avaris because of leprosy. Moses was said to have covered his face because of leprosy. Any thoughts. If Moses did have leprosy, wouldn’t that eliminate Egyptian lineage?

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Posted: 02 October 2017 10:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Another point. I am not buying the parting of the water or sea of reeds story due to logistics. The main city of the area was Pi-Ramesses, the new capital. I would guess that capital cities have roads to all trading areas. Including going to the trade areas of the Red Sea. The roads would have connected to the older Avaris roads that must have been thousands of years old. The distance between Avaris and Pi-Ramesses was only 9-12 miles by the bible. There are many unanswered questions about the canals and waterways of the time. Waterways were known as the main trade routes to the seas going from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea. The big question is the location of the Port of Perunefer. If it was at Avaris, why in the world would the people take to walking across swamps when they could go to the port and load belonging and sail off?

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Posted: 02 October 2017 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Moses could very well have had leprosy - Egypt was being devastated by a deadly plague (the boils and blisters on humans and animals). The path through the sea of reeds would have been an escape route, not a trade route. The point of this post, is, however, that there are three pieces of evidence which independently link Moses to CP Tuthmosis (through the messengers to Jerusalem, and the invasion of Egypt by the Asiatics/Israelites/Hyksos, and also the disappearance of the Egyptian army), and also the first burial of the Apis bull. It is up to you to decide whether this is all just a coincidence.

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Posted: 02 October 2017 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Riaan - 02 October 2017 12:18 PM

Moses could very well have had leprosy - Egypt was being devastated by a deadly plague (the boils and blisters on humans and animals). The path through the sea of reeds would have been an escape route, not a trade route. The point of this post, is, however, that there are three pieces of evidence which independently link Moses to CP Tuthmosis (through the messengers to Jerusalem, and the invasion of Egypt by the Asiatics/Israelites/Hyksos, and also the disappearance of the Egyptian army), and also the first burial of the Apis bull. It is up to you to decide whether this is all just a coincidence.

There seems to be several spelling of Crown Prince Tuthmosis. But not much under the spelling Ththmosis. Can you supply more information so that I am sure what pharaoh you are talking about or add a date to his throne?

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Posted: 02 October 2017 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Riaan - 02 October 2017 12:18 PM

Moses could very well have had leprosy - Egypt was being devastated by a deadly plague (the boils and blisters on humans and animals). The path through the sea of reeds would have been an escape route, not a trade route. The point of this post, is, however, that there are three pieces of evidence which independently link Moses to CP Tuthmosis (through the messengers to Jerusalem, and the invasion of Egypt by the Asiatics/Israelites/Hyksos, and also the disappearance of the Egyptian army), and also the first burial of the Apis bull. It is up to you to decide whether this is all just a coincidence.

I am missing the “invasion of Egypt”. I understand that the Asiatic/Israelites/Hyksos came to Egypt. The Egyptian religions are built on parts and ideas of the Asiatic religions. When you go back far enough on the timeline, all religion migrated out of India.
 
The Israelites, called the Canaan’s at the time most likely traveled to Egypt each year to sell sheep and honey. And to work in the Flax Seed harvest. The Asiatic were always there and in Europe until many plagues of leprosy wiped out most of Asiatic lineage.
 
The Hyksos most likely migrated to Goshen, which was part of an Asiatic kingdom outpost from India as old as Egypt itself.
 
The Canaan burials methods were out of India. And the oldest burial methods were Red ochre burials or Adam burials out of India. Only after the exodus from Egypt did the burial method change from sky burials.
 
Point being that Canaan was most likely seen by the Egyptians as occupied by Asians. Even at the time of Jesus, the Canaan area had a leprosy problem.
 
I see the exodus as a money issue. Olive oil gave the Hyksos great power when they came. The Hyksos had expanded and changed the society in the 400 to 500 years they ruled. The olive oil farming had expanded around the Mediterranean shore line. And Ramses took advantage of Hyksos who were leaving Egypt because of the leprosy. Moses was not strong enough to keep what the leaving Hyksos had left him to control. And he had to get out of Egypt. As the bible said he promised his followers that he would take them to a land that had old olive orchards. And that was Canaan.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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The invasion of Egypt during the reign of Amenhotep III’s reign is described by Manetho via Josephus. According to Manetho, Moses sent messengers to the Hyksos rulers of Jerusalem and summoned them to join him in his fight against A3. After some hesitation (apparently) they obliged and together with soldiers loyal to Moses, they confronted the Egyptian army under A3. A3 decided not to engage them and retreated to Ethiopia for 13 years. There is ample evidence in Nubia that A3 had stayed there for considerable time. At first it may seem ludicrous, but this embarrassing story is repeated in the EL Arsih Shrine Text (Asiatics had overrun Egypt), and in the Story of Joseph and Asenath (the Israelites boasting how they went to the assistance of the king’s eldest son, who had declared war upon his father, and how they had defeated the Egyptians.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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I see what you are saying. Is it possible. Yes, I think so. Reasons being. If the Hyksos were still in Salem that could have been a military edge. The dating of the building of Memphis may be a problem in that Moses was to have taken people from other countries that were living in the new capital of Memphis back to their country with him in the Exodus.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Haven’t done much reading in this area for a decade now. Reason is I was hoping that the dating of the Burckle Crater would be funded. And that could establish a possible datum timeline for events and leave geological clues across the region.

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Posted: 04 October 2017 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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The thought just occurred to me, whether the Old Testament as we know it, would not by any chance, in one way or another, also refer to an invasion of Egypt by the Israelites. And lo and behold, it does - Joseph’s brothers, exactly the same guys who, in the Story of Jospeh and Asenath, invaded Egypt at the request of the king’s eldest son, so the he (this son of the king), could kill his own father. Following the usual justification of their deeds, and the embellishments, etc., etc., we read in Josephus’ account of Joseph and his brothers, that they had come to Egypt, supposedly because of a famine in their land (Israel / Palestine may have been suffering the same deadly plagues that Egypt was), and that they had left Egypt and with “wagons full of corn, and gold, and silver.” This matches Manetho’s description of the Hyksos rulers invading Egypt and plundering it for at least a decade.

In Exodus 12:36 we read “The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.” This must have been an attempt by a scribe or scribes who could not deny that the Israelites had plundered Egypt, but needed some feeble justification (BS, of course) for why Egypt had been plundered.

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