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Yet another “Intelligent design” argument
Posted: 01 November 2017 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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@ InBetween,

Have you watched the presentation by Robert Hazen?  If not,  watch it!!  He is a real scientist.

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Posted: 01 November 2017 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Write4U - 31 October 2017 06:53 PM

...

Oh well. I gave you a short concise replies with no links or anything, just text, but the forum tells me it’s spam and it was not. So it did not let me post it.

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Posted: 01 November 2017 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Write4U - 01 November 2017 01:14 PM

@ InBetween,

Have you watched the presentation by Robert Hazen?  If not,  watch it!!  He is a real scientist.

I just did. Couldn’t get through the q & a section as the utube kept on flipping out (nothing to do with the internet traffic). Thought the claim that there is no life anywhere else but here on this tiny rock is as dogmatic as the Mormon doctrine is.

Here we have fish on seas and lakes, and 100’s of kinds. Insects and 1000’s of kinds, animals, 1000’s of kinds, humans, how many species we have? the blacks, the Asians, the whites, the red, the Nordics, the browns, etc. As far as animals we are still discovering new ones every now and then, the birds, we have 100’s of kinds. Aaaaaaalll of this on a single tiny dot called earth, but out there where there are 1000’s of planets that are just as livable?  NOTHING!!! Very credible.

[ Edited: 01 November 2017 02:51 PM by InBetween ]
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Posted: 01 November 2017 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Advocatus - 01 November 2017 06:53 AM
InBetween - 31 October 2017 04:44 PM

There was nothing speculative about the foundation of that book. He travelled extensively to those sites and investigated them First hand. I personally find that book to be reasonably honest. I am not saying he’s the new messiah, but his material is most definitely food for thought. For example,  He took pictures of sculptures made by indigenous people of An Astronaut looking being clearly appearing to wear what seem to be an outer space suit and helmet. etc. He gave references to where those statutes can be viewed and examined. The indigenous people never seen such things as aerospace equipment. And the stuff is old as it has been there away before NASA was born. And on and on. The book is well substantiated.

]

I’m not saying that he didn’t travel to these places and take photographs. If that’s what you call “documentation”, sure.  It’s the conclusions he drew that are pure speculation.  Read the book with the eye of a skeptic, by which I mean ask yourself what kind of evidence he produces.  You’ll be astonished.  Time and time again, you’ll catch him saying, “What if…” or “let us suppose that…”  THEN he assumes that the case is proven and goes onto something else.

All of his conclusions are imagination, just like the “astronaut” you speak of.  He littered his books with myriads of pictures like that, so I’m not sure which one you’re actually talking about.  To me the vast majority of them are unimpressive, the figures are clearly wearing animal horns or some sort of ceremonial garb.  And the fact that no two of them are the same in all those corners of the world should tell you something, unless the Earth was the focal point for some kind of intergalactic convention.  The most famous one I can think of is the so-called “Palenque Astronaut”, which was actually carved on a lid of a Mayan burial chamber.  Superficially, he looks as if he’s in the cockpit of a spacecraft, looking intently into a viewscreen while he operates the controls.  But if you look really closely, you’ll see that the man is wearing a kilt, he’s barefoot, and “capsule” has openings in the side!

I respect your opinion, but I don’t think his evidence amounts to very much.

There is nothing that pertain to him ‘imagining’ stuff up in his book. And the guy was not wearing a kilt. I know what a kilt looks like. It’s a Scottish skirt for men. And it was not it.

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Posted: 01 November 2017 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Lausten - 01 November 2017 07:43 AM

  As Aron Ra said, if you see something brown laying on the sidewalk with flies on it, do you pick it up to see what it is? “Read the book” is a dialog killing statement. It says, “I can’t explain the basic principles, but I believe them.” You presented terrible examples from someone who is claiming expertise in a field. There are thousands of others in that field, his work has been available for decades, yet, none of it has been confirmed, in fact it continues to be a joke to most.

You know, the Bible has lots of universal values and stories that explain how to be moral. It’s basically a guide for how to create a peaceful society. Read it.

If you can’t regurgitate his work, that’s fine. I can file this under “thing that I haven’t read the book about” and continue to use my general knowledge to determine the probability of it being wrong. But if you want to argue, “read the book” is not an argument.

NO. “read the book” is a discussion starter. You however did not even read it. You heard that he wrote about something you disagree with, and that was enough for you to shelf it as “something brown laying on the sidewalk with flies on it”. That book sold 7 millions copies. I wish I could be as good. And I know many secretly do too. And outrageous labeling such as that are Discussion KILLERS. There is nothing that needs explaining in that book as it is very easy to read as well as COMPREHEND. I related what’s on it since you seem to be unware of it’s content. As far as the bible. I’ve read it several times and I still read it to this day. if that is worthy book for you to read, then why do you dismiss it’s content? that is rather very hypocritical and dishonest.
BTW, I still have the book, I want to give me the page # and chapter where Erich “claim expertise in anything”. I want to go back and read it as I don’t recall having come across any such passage. thank you.

[ Edited: 01 November 2017 03:27 PM by InBetween ]
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Posted: 01 November 2017 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten,
I find your attitude towards me very patronizing and even disgusting. You got nothing to say to what the guy found out, so your resort to such low pitiful behavior to make yourself feel good about your apparent ignorance. And that is what needs to be addressed here.

ETA:
Speaking of the bible, this is what it says about mankind including you. You brought it up, I didn’t not.

“All of us have become like one who is unclean,
  and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
  and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

~~ISAIAH 64:6~~

[ Edited: 01 November 2017 03:58 PM by InBetween ]
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Posted: 01 November 2017 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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InBetween - 01 November 2017 03:23 PM

NO. “read the book” is a discussion starter. You however did not even read it. You heard that he wrote about something you disagree with, and that was enough for you to shelf it as “something brown laying on the sidewalk with flies on it”. That book sold 7 millions copies. I wish I could be as good. And I know many secretly do too. And outrageous labeling such as that are Discussion KILLERS. There is nothing that needs explaining in that book as it is very easy to read as well as COMPREHEND. I related what’s on it since you seem to be unware of it’s content. As far as the bible. I’ve read it several times and I still read it to this day. if that is worthy book for you to read, then why do you dismiss it’s content? that is rather very hypocritical and dishonest.
BTW, I still have the book, I want to give me the page # and chapter where Erich “claim expertise in anything”. I want to go back and read it as I don’t recall having come across any such passage. thank you.

Sorry you don’t understand my epistemology. I think I’m pretty consistent about what convinces me something is true, and selling a book is not one of them. People believe all sorts of stuff. You presented evidence, evidence that is easily available for free, and it was unconvincing. If it’s so easy to comprehend, it should be easy to relate. I don’t just “disagree” with it, I have a lifetime of experiences and none of them give me any indication that aliens came here, did a bunch of things and the only trace of them is rock carvings. Think about all the things that would have to change for that to be true. Think of all the questions that you have make ad-hoc answers to for that to be true.

When I say he “claimed” something, I just mean he spoke about something as if he had some level expertise. Looking at ancient carvings requires some context, some training. By writing about it and making conclusions, he’s “claiming” he can do it.

I don’t know what you expected when you came here. You don’t even need to leave the CFI web page and you’ll find plenty of discussion that agrees with me. You’re welcome to stay, but expect more of the same.

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Posted: 01 November 2017 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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InBetween - 01 November 2017 01:21 PM
Write4U - 01 November 2017 01:14 PM

@ InBetween,

Have you watched the presentation by Robert Hazen?  If not,  watch it!!  He is a real scientist.

I just did. Couldn’t get through the q & a section as the utube kept on flipping out (nothing to do with the internet traffic). Thought the claim that there is no life anywhere else but here on this tiny rock is as dogmatic as the Mormon doctrine is.

Here we have fish on seas and lakes, and 100’s of kinds. Insects and 1000’s of kinds, animals, 1000’s of kinds, humans, how many species we have? the blacks, the Asians, the whites, the red, the Nordics, the browns, etc. As far as animals we are still discovering new ones every now and then, the birds, we have 100’s of kinds. Aaaaaaalll of this on a single tiny dot called earth, but out there where there are 1000’s of planets that are just as livable?  NOTHING!!! Very credible.

How do you know that? have you been “out there”?

And obviously you either did not listen or you did not understand. Robert Hazen clearly states that in his opinion the probability of life on other planets somewhere in the universe has a very high probability.

Does you conclusion of NOTHING!!! rest on our knowledge of the Moon or Mars?

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Posted: 02 November 2017 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Write4U - 01 November 2017 05:59 PM

And obviously you either did not listen or you did not understand. Robert Hazen clearly states that in his opinion the probability of life on other planets somewhere in the universe has a very high probability.

 

The question of there being life elsewhere is very different than the one of this planet being visited by that life. The odds of there being life on other planets has proven difficult to calculate, but I think there is general agreement that the probability is high. It’s one of the missions of NASA. It’s related to figuring out how we got here.

But as Fermi once asked, “where are all the aliens”? If you take the higher end of the predictions of intelligent life, then start calculating how long it should take them to start colonizing planets, we should see a lot more evidence of them. I mean beacons and space junk, not inconsistent rock carvings. There are several theories for why we don’t see them. My favorite is that they don’t want to be seen. They know what happens when two alien cultures meet, and they don’t want that.

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Posted: 02 November 2017 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Lausten - 02 November 2017 06:22 AM
Write4U - 01 November 2017 05:59 PM

And obviously you either did not listen or you did not understand. Robert Hazen clearly states that in his opinion the probability of life on other planets somewhere in the universe has a very high probability.

 

The question of there being life elsewhere is very different than the one of this planet being visited by that life. The odds of there being life on other planets has proven difficult to calculate, but I think there is general agreement that the probability is high. It’s one of the missions of NASA. It’s related to figuring out how we got here.

But as Fermi once asked, “where are all the aliens”? If you take the higher end of the predictions of intelligent life, then start calculating how long it should take them to start colonizing planets, we should see a lot more evidence of them. I mean beacons and space junk, not inconsistent rock carvings. There are several theories for why we don’t see them. My favorite is that they don’t want to be seen. They know what happens when two alien cultures meet, and they don’t want that.

Suppose an advanced alien race is travelling the universe. It may take a million years for them to reach just one star with habitable planets. Why should we be the first? Our Sun is in the boonies of the universe.

Look at us. we are an advanced race conducting space exploration. We haven’t even explored our solar system yet, let alone our galaxy, and we expect to have been visited by aliens?

Do people have any idea of the enormity of the Universe? There are trillions of stars. The hubris is astounding!


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Posted: 03 November 2017 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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A little math always helps.Let’s say 1/10 of 1% of the galaxies in the universe have life capable of interstellar travel. I’m just going to ignore intergalactic travel for this calculation. The number of planets that could have had an existing space travel culture that lasted for thousands of years could be quite large, but we’re only concerned with the current cultures. If you pick a small number, like 3 per galaxy, that’s still 6 billion planets with flying saucers and warp drive and who knows what.

Now, start looking at how long it would take us to get a tiny probe to the nearest star and how much of the local galaxy we’ve actually seen, let alone visited. Then tell me again how it’s hubris to say we are unlikely to make contact with aliens any time soon.

The hubris is in saying we are in a galaxy with an above average number of intelligent life forms, and in a part of that galaxy that is densely populated with them, and that we are worthy of their attention.

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Posted: 03 November 2017 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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InBetween - 01 November 2017 03:01 PM

There is nothing that pertain to him ‘imagining’ stuff up in his book.

I get the feeling that I must be coming off much more dismissive than I intend.  It’s a fascinating idea, I totally agree with that.  I was fascinated by it myself in the 70’s.  “What if some of the gods and legendary characters from mythology were real people?  What if they came here from other planets?”  That’s an absolutely astounding idea!  The trouble is that when you dig deep, that’s all it turns out to be, a game of “What if…?”  It’s an amazing avenue for speculation, but there’s nothing that you’d really call evidence.

And the guy was not wearing a kilt. I know what a kilt looks like. It’s a Scottish skirt for men. And it was not it.

Can we at least agree that whatever he’s wearing, it’s not a spacesuit?  smile

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Posted: 03 November 2017 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Lausten - 01 November 2017 04:54 PM

 
Sorry you don’t understand my epistemology. .....

I do understand what “something brown that has flies around it” means. I also know it has no place where you put it. I can safely conclude that I put you in really smelly place when it comes to your own prejudices and underlying mentality.. ....

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Posted: 03 November 2017 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Advocatus - 03 November 2017 10:41 AM
InBetween - 01 November 2017 03:01 PM

There is nothing that pertain to him ‘imagining’ stuff up in his book.

I get the feeling that I must be coming off much more dismissive than I intend.  It’s a fascinating idea, I totally agree with that.  I was fascinated by it myself in the 70’s.  “What if some of the gods and legendary characters from mythology were real people?  What if they came here from other planets?”  That’s an absolutely astounding idea!  The trouble is that when you dig deep, that’s all it turns out to be, a game of “What if…?”  It’s an amazing avenue for speculation, but there’s nothing that you’d really call evidence.

.... 

He does not refer to space aliens as “gods”, he does not. You guys need to drop that false accusation. IN fact he gets annoyed at those who, refer to beings who happen to simply be more evolved than we are,  as “Gods”. One can clearly sense that as they read the book. did you know that Phil Schneider, an American Geologist, Structural Engineer and Explosives Expert, came face to face with 2 Alien Grays, when he was working with the US Government back in 73, as they were digging underground tunnels to connect various Deep Underground military Bases?!?!? I believe this guy. According to him, they have been living under earth for last 4 to 500 years.  And who knows how they got here?!

You can suppress this all you want, people are going to find out the truth. BTW, Phil Schneider was strangled to dearth in 96. But not b4 he gave no less than 30 lectures about this. So the Word about this is most definitely Out!

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Posted: 03 November 2017 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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InBetween - 03 November 2017 01:23 PM

He does not refer to space aliens as “gods”, he does not.

Maybe he should have given the book a different title? !

Anyway, glad you didn’t run away IB. Always good to stretch one’s logic muscles. Being open minded, I’ll just ask an open ended question. Why do you believe Phil Schneider? There are no credentials in the universe that I would accept for an “alien spotter”. Claims like that require a couple more witnesses and some additional evidence. Barring that, some things would need to be explained; why didn’t he go back with a camera? Where did this happen? If they were there for 400 years, you’d think there’d be some evidence, like living quarters or some garbage.

Or, if you want to pursue a different angle, how am I suppressing this?

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