1 of 9
1
Why is death not the “answer”?
Posted: 09 September 2017 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  963
Joined  2015-12-29

A recurring theme in existential philosophy I’ve seen is that suicide isn’t the answer to life, that it’s just negating the issue instead of dealing with it. But to me it does seem like a solution and it means one doesn’t have to deal with the issue anymore. Their response to the matter is rather weak to me. I think it’s because death is such a taboo topic that people don’t want to answer the question about what if people want to die and there isn’t anything medically wrong with them?

There is a lot to say about life being worth living. But if you choose to die then you wouldn’t have to worry about what to fill your life with to make it worthwhile. All that work and effort required to exist is taken away. No worries, no joy, no anger, quite literally nothing. It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn’t make sense to continue living. I get some people say there is stuff they want to do, but that seems to fit in with the “worrying” about what you are going to fill your life with. With death there is no need for any of that. There isn’t anything you need to do or want. No body to upkeep either.

That whole “life is worth living” bit doesn’t make sense anymore, in fact it doesn’t seem philosophically defensible. Antinatalism may have been right about this matter.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 September 2017 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4074
Joined  2009-10-21

The problem with death is you are not alive. It’s not like sleep. When I sleep, there are a lot of things I don’t need to worry about, but I know I’ll come back. I know I still exist, even though I’m not “knowing” that while I’m sleeping in the same way I’m knowing about things while I’m awake. Death takes away all those things you talk about, but it also takes away everything else. It’s final, it’s complete, it’s irreversible. There is no experience of being dead as far as we know. It is not blissful because there is no feeling of it being better than being alive. I guess you could say that life is better than nothing. It’s actually a lot better, but we’ve been over that you so I won’t repeat that.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 September 2017 07:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  963
Joined  2015-12-29
Lausten - 10 September 2017 09:21 AM

The problem with death is you are not alive. It’s not like sleep. When I sleep, there are a lot of things I don’t need to worry about, but I know I’ll come back. I know I still exist, even though I’m not “knowing” that while I’m sleeping in the same way I’m knowing about things while I’m awake. Death takes away all those things you talk about, but it also takes away everything else. It’s final, it’s complete, it’s irreversible. There is no experience of being dead as far as we know. It is not blissful because there is no feeling of it being better than being alive. I guess you could say that life is better than nothing. It’s actually a lot better, but we’ve been over that you so I won’t repeat that.

But the things that “make life worth it” only apply to being alive, and if you don’t do them then you suffer which tends to be the baseline nature of existence. While in death, there isn’t anything needed. You don’t have to make it worth anything. It’s just nothingness.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2017 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4074
Joined  2009-10-21

This is the opening to a recent book by a Buddhist Monk from Vietnam. He came to America in 1965 to ask us to stop blowing up his country. He continues to teach peace. Yes, life involves suffering, but as he says, “We want to discover who we really are, and we want to understand our suffering. Understanding our suffering gives rise to acceptance and love, and this is what determines our quality of life.”

We’re so close to Earth that sometimes we forget how beautiful it is. Seen from space, our blue planet is remarkably alive — a living paradise suspended in a vast and hostile cosmos. On the first trip to the moon, astronauts were stunned to see Earth rise above the moon’s desolate horizon. We know that on the moon there are no trees, rivers, or birds. No other planet has yet been found to have life as we know it. It is reported that astronauts orbiting high up in space stations spend most of their free time contemplating the breathtaking sight of Earth far below. From a distance, it looks like one giant living, breathing organism. Seeing its beauty and wonder, astronauts feel great love for the whole Earth. They know billions of people are living out their lives on this little planet, with all their joy, happiness, and suffering. They see violence, wars, famine, and environmental destruction. At the same time, they see clearly that this wonderful little blue planet, so fragile and precious, is irreplaceable. As one astronaut put it, “We went to the moon as technicians; we returned as humanitarians.”

Science is the pursuit of understanding, helping us to understand distant stars and galaxies, our place in the cosmos, as well as the intimate fabric of matter, living cells, and our own bodies. Science, like philosophy, is concerned with understanding the nature of existence and the meaning of life.
Spirituality is also a field of research and study. We want to understand ourselves, the world around us, and what it means to be alive on Earth. We want to discover who we really are, and we want to understand our suffering. Understanding our suffering gives rise to acceptance and love, and this is what determines our quality of life. We all need to be understood and to be loved. And we all want to understand and to love.

Spirituality is not religion. It is a path for us to generate happiness, understanding, and love, so we can live deeply each moment of our life. Having a spiritual dimension in our lives does not mean escaping life or dwelling in a place of bliss outside this world but discovering ways to handle life’s difficulties and generate peace, joy, and happiness right where we are, on this beautiful planet.

The spirit of practicing mindfulness, concentration, and insight in Buddhism is very close to the spirit of science. We don’t use expensive instruments but rather our clear mind and our stillness to look deeply and investigate reality for ourselves, with openness and non-discrimination.
We want to know where we come from and where we are going. And most of all, we want to be happy. Humanity has given rise to many talented artists, musicians, and architects, but how many of us have mastered the art of creating a happy moment — for ourselves and those around us?

Like every species on Earth, we are always seeking the ideal conditions that will allow us to live to our fullest potential. We want to do more than just survive. We want to live. But what does it mean to be alive? What does it mean to die? What happens when we die? Is there life after death? Is there reincarnation? Will we see our loved ones again? Do we have a soul that goes to heaven or nirvana or God? These questions are in everyone’s hearts. Sometimes they become words, and sometimes they are left unsaid, but they are still there, pulling at our hearts every time we think about our life, about those we love, our sick or ageing parents, or those who have already passed away.

How can we begin to answer these questions about life and death? A good answer, the right answer, should be based on evidence. It is not a question of faith or belief, but of looking deeply. To meditate is to look deeply and see the things that others cannot see, including the wrong views that lie at the base of our suffering. When we can break free from these wrong views, we can master the art of living happily in peace and freedom.

The first wrong view we need to liberate ourselves from is the idea that we are a separate self cut off from the rest of the world. We have a tendency to think we have a separate self that is born at one moment and must die at another, and that is permanent during the time we are alive. As long as we have this wrong view, we will suffer; we will create suffering for those around us, and we will cause harm to other species and to our precious planet. The second wrong view that many of us hold is the view that we are only this body, and that when we die we cease to exist. This wrong view blinds us to all the ways in which we are interconnected with the world around us and the ways in which we continue after death. The third wrong view that many of us have is the idea that what we are looking for — whether it be happiness, heaven, or love — can be found only outside us in a distant future. We may spend our lives chasing after and waiting for these things, not realizing that they can be found within us, right in the present moment.

There are three fundamental practices to help liberate us from these three wrong views: the concentrations on emptiness, signlessness, and aimlessness. They are known as the Three Doors of Liberation and are available in every school of Buddhism. These three concentrations offer us a deep insight into what it means to be alive and what it means to die. They help us transform feelings of grief, anxiety, loneliness, and alienation. They have the power to liberate us from our wrong views, so we can live deeply and fully, and face dying and death without fear, anger, or despair.

We can also explore four additional concentrations on impermanence, non-craving, letting go, and nirvana. These four practices are found in Sutra on the Full Awareness of Breathing, a wonderful text from early Buddhism. The concentration on impermanence helps free us from our tendency to live as though we and our loved ones will be here forever. The concentration on non-craving is an opportunity to take time to sit down and figure out what true happiness really is. We discover that we already have more than enough conditions to be happy, right here in the present moment. And the concentration on letting go helps us disentangle ourselves from suffering and transform and release painful feelings. Looking deeply with all these concentrations, we are able to touch the peace and freedom of nirvana.

These seven concentrations are very practical. Together, they awaken us to reality. They help us cherish what we have, so we can touch true happiness in the very here and now. And they give us the insight we need to treasure the time we have, reconcile with those we love, and transform our suffering into love and understanding. This is the art of living.

We need to use our mindfulness, concentration, and insight in order to understand what it means to be alive and what it means to die. We can speak of scientific and spiritual discoveries as “insights” and the practice of nourishing and sustaining those insights as “concentration.”
With the insights of science and spirituality, we have an opportunity in the twenty-first century to conquer the root causes of suffering in human beings. If the twentieth century was characterized by individualism and consumption, the twenty-first century can be characterized by the insight of interconnectedness, and by efforts to explore new forms of solidarity and togetherness. Meditating on the seven concentrations enables us to see everything in the light of interdependence, freeing us from our wrong views and breaking down the barriers of a discriminating mind. The freedom we seek is not the kind of freedom that is self-destructive or destructive of other nations or the environment, but the kind of freedom that liberates us from our loneliness, anger, hatred, fear, craving, and despair.

The teaching of the Buddha is very clear, effective, and simple to understand. It opens up a path of living, not just for our personal benefit, but for our whole species. We have the power to decide the destiny of our planet. Buddhism offers us the clearest expression of humanism we have ever had. It is our insights and our actions that will save us. If we awaken to our true situation, there will be collective change in our consciousness. Then hope will be possible. Let us explore how the seven concentrations — deep insights into reality — can shine light on our situation, our suffering.

If while reading you find yourself in unfamiliar terrain, just breathe. This book is a journey we make together, like taking a walk through the forest, enjoying the breathtaking wonders of our precious planet. Occasionally there is a tree with beautiful bark, a striking rock formation, or some vibrant moss growing just off the path, and we want our companion to also enjoy the same beauty. Sometime along the path we’ll sit and have lunch together, or further on the journey drink from a clear spring. This book is a bit like that. Occasionally we will stop and rest, to have a little drink, or to simply sit there, the stillness between us already complete.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2017 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  963
Joined  2015-12-29

This is my reply to the “worth it and struggle” responses:

The things that “make life worth it” only apply if you are alive. Failing to do those things are in a sense what causes suffering, which can be said to be the truth behind existence. If you die there wouldn’t be a need to make life worthwhile, or anything really. The logic that applies to staying alive because life is worth living is flawed, because it only works if we have no choice but to live. If there was a painless out for life it would render all the talk about struggle and reward moot, because there would be no reason to do it all. Simply put, if life where optional people would choose death.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2017 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1541
Joined  2012-04-25
Titanomachina - 26 September 2017 09:39 AM

This is my reply to the “worth it and struggle” responses:

The things that “make life worth it” only apply if you are alive. Failing to do those things are in a sense what causes suffering, which can be said to be the truth behind existence. If you die there wouldn’t be a need to make life worthwhile, or anything really. The logic that applies to staying alive because life is worth living is flawed, because it only works if we have no choice but to live. If there was a painless out for life it would render all the talk about struggle and reward moot, because there would be no reason to do it all. Simply put, if life where optional people would choose death.

It IS optional, and many people chose the option of death. Not sure what you’re driving at though. If you want to kill yourself, go ahead. Just make sure you provide for your loved ones, and that you don’t affect anyone else negatively. Other than that, have at it. And if for some reason you simply can’t bring yourself to do it, well then you have your answer.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2017 11:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  963
Joined  2015-12-29

I’m just trying to defeat the logic for it, but I can’t. It seems like choosing life is illogical.

Actually joy, happiness, and love aren’t guarantees. But sufffering is, just look at what happens when you do nothing. Not to mention the longer you live the higher you chances of encountering greater suffering. People don’t die peacefully in their sleep. As ciorian wrote: “pleasure prepares pain”. In death you have no wants, nothing to pursue. You are taken out of the turbulent chaos of life. You don’t need to live, but everything must die eventually. It’s doesn’t matter if it happens sooner. There are no regrets when you are dead. Thoughts of all the things you wanted to do vanish. Logically speaking, there is no real reason to stay alive. If you don’t need to. Technically nothing needs to live, more like wants. Life itself just multiplies without reason. To stick around is just to struggle a bit longer, but the end is the same. It doesn’t matter what the journey was like if it isn’t remembered. Soon all of humanity will be dust, no difference from the ones who took their lives and the ones who choose to keep going.

That’s another response to people who think life is worth living

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2017 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4074
Joined  2009-10-21

On the new Star Trek, there’s a woman who is human, but took the Vulcan training. When consulting with a Vulcan, he says, “you are allowing your emotions to get in the way of your logic”, and she responds, “My emotions inform my logic.” This is a correction to the flawed conversations about logic that Star Trek has been having since forever. It’s what you don’t get.

And you keep saying things like, “You are taken out of the turbulent chaos of life.” No, you aren’t. You aren’t taken anywhere. There is no “you” who isn’t suffering anymore and there is no you who can feel pleasure, ever again.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2017 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Jr. Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2017-09-24
Titanomachina - 09 September 2017 02:08 PM

A recurring theme in existential philosophy I’ve seen is that suicide isn’t the answer to life, that it’s just negating the issue instead of dealing with it. But to me it does seem like a solution and it means one doesn’t have to deal with the issue anymore. Their response to the matter is rather weak to me. I think it’s because death is such a taboo topic that people don’t want to answer the question about what if people want to die and there isn’t anything medically wrong with them?

There is a lot to say about life being worth living. But if you choose to die then you wouldn’t have to worry about what to fill your life with to make it worthwhile. All that work and effort required to exist is taken away. No worries, no joy, no anger, quite literally nothing. It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn’t make sense to continue living. I get some people say there is stuff they want to do, but that seems to fit in with the “worrying” about what you are going to fill your life with. With death there is no need for any of that. There isn’t anything you need to do or want. No body to upkeep either.

That whole “life is worth living” bit doesn’t make sense anymore, in fact it doesn’t seem philosophically defensible. Antinatalism may have been right about this matter.

If you truly believe that then go for it, I know I won’t miss your crap in the slightest.

As far as I’m concerned the only reason you’re here is to convince others that their lives are not worth living.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2017 09:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Jr. Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2017-09-24

Is this really appropriate here, what effect will this kind of advocacy have on a child reading this for instance?

This posters started out on this forum advocating murdering every else on the planet.

Inquiry is one thing, a platform for psychopaths is another.

I’ve been warned for strong language here but this kind of activity focused on encouraging other to end their own lives is fine?

What the hell gives here?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2017 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Jr. Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2017-09-24

Since not even the report function works on this bullshit forum, I’ll post it here.

Since when is advocating suicide a part of genuine inquiry, how about a little control on one of the most sociopathic posters here.

Do I need to remind you this poster started out advocating murdering almost the entire human population.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 September 2017 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  963
Joined  2015-12-29
DougC.V2 - 27 September 2017 09:07 AM

Since not even the report function works on this bullshit forum, I’ll post it here.

Since when is advocating suicide a part of genuine inquiry, how about a little control on one of the most sociopathic posters here.

Do I need to remind you this poster started out advocating murdering almost the entire human population.

Suicide is only a problem because people refuse to talk about it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2017 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1310
Joined  2005-01-14
DougC.V2 - 27 September 2017 09:04 AM

Is this really appropriate here, what effect will this kind of advocacy have on a child reading this for instance?

That’s why it’s important to respond, so that causal browsers will not get the idea that we accept the opinions of this poster.  As far as I’m concerned, nearly everything should be up for discussion.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2017 12:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1464
Joined  2016-12-24
Advocatus - 29 September 2017 06:36 AM
DougC.V2 - 27 September 2017 09:04 AM

Is this really appropriate here, what effect will this kind of advocacy have on a child reading this for instance?

That’s why it’s important to respond, so that causal browsers will not get the idea that we accept the opinions of this poster.  As far as I’m concerned, nearly everything should be up for discussion.

Any child reading this probably has his/her shit surprisingly well together.  I’d love to hear them comment on this. 

Me I got nothing to add about suicide, there’s a time and place for everything, but not for everybody.

In any event, I want to ask Titano something altogether different, about something that makes life worth living for many,
or worthless if you don’t have any.  That thing called love.

Titano, you may know I’m in my first dog-relationship.  Been around plenty of dogs, but it never got personal.  Now it is and I got me a shadow, well unless there’s something more interesting to check out, but then she comes back to me.

I’m alone with her for a couple weeks.  Meaning no lady affection for Maddy, just the german stick in the mud.

I get busy, I’m comfortable with myself, time flies and then after a while there she is.  It’s not always for a walk. 
Damn, she wants me to give her a little attention and affection.  Quality one on one time even.

When I take her along on short drives in my pick up,
she sometimes nuzzles my arm until I drop it over her and stroke that wonderfully soft fur of hers. 

There’s sort of a feedback thing happening and it makes me feel good.  Heck I even sing to her some, with the affection I’d show a baby. 
Okay, its worse, early on out of nowhere I made up a little morning song and actually wind up singing it most morning, shockingly out of character, hell I’m too uptight to join a drum circle with friends.  None of it contrived for anyone else’s benefit, totally natural development.

It just IS.

So riddle me this: Why do dogs need love?

[ Edited: 30 September 2017 12:20 AM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2017 12:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4267
Joined  2014-06-20
Titanomachina - 28 September 2017 10:07 PM
DougC.V2 - 27 September 2017 09:07 AM

Since not even the report function works on this bullshit forum, I’ll post it here.

Since when is advocating suicide a part of genuine inquiry, how about a little control on one of the most sociopathic posters here.

Do I need to remind you this poster started out advocating murdering almost the entire human population.

Suicide is only a problem because people refuse to talk about it.

Not necessarily true. A lot of people talk about it and decide to do it anyway. If a person feels as if his or her life is no longer worth living (whether it is or not in other people’s view) he’s probably going to do it or at least attempt it. Potential suicides are usually not rational. People who are suffering a fatal disease, especially a painful one, may be quite rational when they decide to commit suicide.

Lois

[ Edited: 30 September 2017 12:30 AM by LoisL ]
 Signature 

[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2017 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4074
Joined  2009-10-21

You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 9
1