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Why is death not the “answer”?
Posted: 30 September 2017 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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rip

LoisL - 30 September 2017 12:28 AM

Not necessarily true. A lot of people talk about it and decide to do it anyway. If a person feels as if his or her life is no longer worth living (whether it is or not in other people’s view) he’s probably going to do it or at least attempt it. Potential suicides are usually not rational. People who are suffering a fatal disease, especially a painful one, may be quite rational when they decide to commit suicide.

Lois

Lausten - 30 September 2017 05:47 AM

You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.

Seemed to me Lois summarized the situation quite well.
Death has a certain sanctity to it also, and deserves to be respected.

If my body is spent by old age or terminal illness, by what right do others force me to continue enduring the hell of invasive medical treatments that do nothing but keep me breathing a bit longer while my body has turned into a torture chamber.  What is the point?

Because too many faith-based are terrified and resent the very notion of death as an affront to their over bloated egos??

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Posted: 30 September 2017 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Cc: I was addressing Tita. I agree with your end of life issues.

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Posted: 30 September 2017 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Lausten - 30 September 2017 10:55 AM

Cc: I was addressing Tita. I agree with your end of life issues.

Oops, thanks for clarifying.
okay makes more sense now.

So Tita want to talk about dogs and love.
The subject is much more fun.

[ Edited: 30 September 2017 11:37 AM by Citizenschallenge-v.3 ]
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Posted: 30 September 2017 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Lausten - 30 September 2017 05:47 AM

You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.

Who are you responding to, Lausten? If you are responding to me, please explain your points in relation to my post.

Lois

 Signature 

[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

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Posted: 30 September 2017 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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LoisL - 30 September 2017 12:05 PM
Lausten - 30 September 2017 05:47 AM

You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.

Who are you responding to, Lausten? If you are responding to me, please explain your points in relation to my post.

Lois

Tita. See two posts up.

[ Edited: 30 September 2017 02:17 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 30 September 2017 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Citizenschallenge-v.3 - 30 September 2017 12:17 AM
Advocatus - 29 September 2017 06:36 AM
DougC.V2 - 27 September 2017 09:04 AM

Is this really appropriate here, what effect will this kind of advocacy have on a child reading this for instance?

That’s why it’s important to respond, so that causal browsers will not get the idea that we accept the opinions of this poster.  As far as I’m concerned, nearly everything should be up for discussion.

Any child reading this probably has his/her shit surprisingly well together.  I’d love to hear them comment on this. 

Me I got nothing to add about suicide, there’s a time and place for everything, but not for everybody.

In any event, I want to ask Titano something altogether different, about something that makes life worth living for many,
or worthless if you don’t have any.  That thing called love.

Titano, you may know I’m in my first dog-relationship.  Been around plenty of dogs, but it never got personal.  Now it is and I got me a shadow, well unless there’s something more interesting to check out, but then she comes back to me.

I’m alone with her for a couple weeks.  Meaning no lady affection for Maddy, just the german stick in the mud.

I get busy, I’m comfortable with myself, time flies and then after a while there she is.  It’s not always for a walk. 
Damn, she wants me to give her a little attention and affection.  Quality one on one time even.

When I take her along on short drives in my pick up,
she sometimes nuzzles my arm until I drop it over her and stroke that wonderfully soft fur of hers. 

There’s sort of a feedback thing happening and it makes me feel good.  Heck I even sing to her some, with the affection I’d show a baby. 
Okay, its worse, early on out of nowhere I made up a little morning song and actually wind up singing it most morning, shockingly out of character, hell I’m too uptight to join a drum circle with friends.  None of it contrived for anyone else’s benefit, totally natural development.

It just IS.

So riddle me this: Why do dogs need love?

Your point loses its luster when you realize that dogs are essentially bred to love us.

Also to recite a quote: love isn’t enough. Love simply isn’t a reason to continue living, in fact it’s often used to justify death.

The thing is that none of us are obligated to live life and the things that bring pleasure only apply to being alive. When you die you don’t need to deal with making your life worth living, no need for pleasure or love. Nothing at all. It removes the chores and chases of life. It also removes any want (including wanting to stay alive). Logically put, there isn’t a reason to no commit suicide.

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Posted: 30 September 2017 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It’s really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.

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Posted: 30 September 2017 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Lausten - 30 September 2017 02:20 PM

Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It’s really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.

This is logic, goes beyond personal experience. Also dogs are irrelevant to the topic

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Posted: 30 September 2017 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 September 2017 04:58 PM
Lausten - 30 September 2017 02:20 PM

Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It’s really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.

This is logic, goes beyond personal experience. Also dogs are irrelevant to the topic

Is there a dog heaven?

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Posted: 30 September 2017 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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sorry T, I’m funning with you.  I’ve been having to look at this thread for weeks now.
I think its a bit presumptuous and what can I say, the dog thing has been on my mind and it sure seems more fun and interesting than this thread was. 
Besides, I think all of us basically agree with you on your central point - in the big scope of things and time, nothing matters, it’s all useless and an illusion.

Hell you can find people seriously arguing that time and matter are illusions.  So there.

So yeah, it don’t matter when or how anyone lives or dies in the end the sun is going to swallow the Earth.
You seem to choose to see emptiness everywhere.  I choose meaning and connections everywhere.
But, it don’t matter in the end.

Well, then again, it does, to me   wink    even if not to anyone or anything else.
Besides I was given this time and place, I will live and experience it as well as I can.
You want be Phaedrus eating yourself up with the meaninglessness and hopelessness of ‘it all’.
So there,

I kinda like poking at you and hearing what you come up with. 
Whereas others seem literal ciphers, it feels to me you are actually engaged in your struggle,    , I don’t think you’re one of phonies. 
That’s good enough for me, so I find myself fascinated (in a liking curious sort of way) in conversing with you.
Seeing what you come up with.
So forgive me for trying to drag you away from suicide and going OT on you.  cheese

I think I’ve mentioned “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert M. Pirsig ©1974 if you ever visit a library give it a try.
No don’t ask anyone else, or waste your time with clueless internet reviews to see what it’s about,
gotta read it yourself.  Tucked away by yourself in the back of a Greyhound bus driving coast to coast would be the best venue.
Although I imagine anywhere away from crowds will do.

(Interesting that’s the year after I graduated high school, timing was great, but that’s a different story. 
Another one of those cosmic giggles some of us are blessed with.  grin  )

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Posted: 30 September 2017 10:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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It’s not exactly meaninglessness only that suicide seems to be a more logical choice than living life in the ultimatel analysis. As I said, you don’t need to having meaning or experience joy in death. All your needs and wants are taken away by death, therefor nullifying them as an excuse to keep living.

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Posted: 01 October 2017 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 September 2017 10:16 PM

It’s not exactly meaninglessness only that suicide seems to be a more logical choice than living life in the ultimatel analysis. As I said, you don’t need to having meaning or experience joy in death. All your needs and wants are taken away by death, therefor nullifying them as an excuse to keep living.

If you take needs and wants out of consideration, you can’t make any decision about anything. You’ve removed reasons from reasoning. You’ve taken data out of analysis. You can now put back only the things you want to include and reach any conclusion you desire. You started with a conclusion and constructed a world that fit it. That is a fantasy.

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Posted: 01 October 2017 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it’s unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one “must” experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn’t a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn’t negate that there isn’t one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don’t need pleasure. It is the logical choice.

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Posted: 01 October 2017 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I know what it means to be alive. Do you know what it means to be repetitive? Do you know it annoys the hell out of people?

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Posted: 01 October 2017 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Titanomachina - 01 October 2017 01:08 PM

But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it’s unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one “must” experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn’t a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn’t negate that there isn’t one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don’t need pleasure. It is the logical choice.

Sounds like you are a natural Buddhist.

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