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US needs sane gun laws NOW!
Posted: 03 October 2017 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Beltane - 02 October 2017 10:32 PM

Gun control is effective in America, the problem is that its impossible to tell when someone might snap.

For that to be true, there must be a lot less mental illness in the rest of the world. For that to be true, you would have to alter our understanding of the human mind.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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There are so many loopholes in US federal gun control that it is meaningless. Control is patchwork across the nation which means you can have very tight gun control in some areas and still have incredible rates of gun violence.

This isn’t a situation of “someone snapping” as our resident troll is belching from under the bridge. This is a constant level of violence only made possible by the widespread availability of firearms of all kinds across the US. The claim that gun ownership makes Americans safe, which is clearly the claim of the gun industry through its lobbying body the NRA, is completely refuted by the facts. The largest ownership of guns in civilian hands in the world makes Americans far more unsafe than they would be otherwise.

Chicago which has some of the strictest gun control laws in North America - tighter than any Canadian city - has some of the highest levels of gun violence in the world. The guns come in from across the country, there is a ring of gun dealers all around the county limits.

And this idea that automatic weapons are being controlled in America is also complete BS. If you can buy a semi-automatic AR-15 which is the civilian version of an M-16 you can easily own a weapon that can fire almost as many rounds as an M-16 as Jerry Miculek demonstrates on a video on this page.

https://www.wired.com/story/las-vegas-shooting-automatic-rifle/

You can get a “hellfire trigger”, or a “bump” stock and turn your semi-auto AR-15 or AK-47 into a full auto military grade weapon with easy. Or an online kit that transforms an AR-15 into an M-16.

Any sane gun control policy doesn’t need to know if someone is going to snap or not, it makes sure most of the weapons aren’t there in the first place. Why do some US citizens need to be armed like there is a looming war, the British aren’t coming anymore. This idea that the 2nd Amendment protects Americans is from the 18th not 21st century. It is stuck over 200 years in the past. It was created at a time when most Americans lived in the country where the nearest neighbor could be miles away and the entire nation was under the threat of British invasion which did occur in 1814. At a time when all weapons were muzzle-loaders and had poor accuracy even the rifled muzzle-loaders which struggled to hit human sized targets at more than a couple hundred yards.

If you know what you’re doing with a handgun you can hit a target at 1,000 yards with a handgun now as Jerry Miculek demonstrates here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw

In the 1780s when the 2nd Amendment was enacted it took a rifleman up to a minute to load his weapon that was often so inaccurate that it couldn’t reliably hit a target at 100 yards, it’s why soldiers went into combat in large organized lines that stood facing each other and shot volley after volley.

As we just saw in Las Vegas, one man had enough firepower to kill 59 and wound over 500 in minutes. It would take a company of 1780s US militia to do that and they had actual enemies to face. All we have now in the US is US civilians attacking US civilians. Or police who are so paranoid about being shot by armed civilians that they kill thousands a year.

There have been over 1,500 mass shootings since Sandy Hook, the question isn’t if there will be another mass shooting, it is when and they are almost daily events now somewhere in the US. If they’re not large enough they aren’t even reported.

This is what the kind of lax gun laws that the US gun manufacturers are imposing on the US through the NRA lobby is creating. The equivalent of a Vietnam War for the US every two years.

People can still commit violent crimes without firearms, but it is almost impossible to do something like the Las Vegas killer did without firearms. It makes it very easy for someone to kill and maim a huge number of people very easily. He probably had something like a gat trigger, or a full auto M-16 mod and high capacity mags of up to 100 rounds. That was sustained gunfire coming from that hotel window on the level of a military action and the casualties reflect this.

The US is never going to be safe from rampant gun violence as long as the gun industry through the NRA is allowed to dictate to Congress and the Oval Office exactly what the gun control laws are. The head of the NRA is paid millions of dollars to lobby for the gun industry, clearly the NRA is no longer a organization that protects citizens rights, it is a private sector lobby group.

The US needs effective gun control laws that actually get millions of guns that are not needed for anything off the streets. Canada has effective gun control laws, but if you are a hunter, a farmer, work in the bush in bear country or more you can still acquire almost any weapon you need.

I hunted decades ago. I took a hunter and gun safety course when I was 16 which was required to get a hunting license. When I turned 18 I applied for and got a firearms acquisition certificate from the RCMP that took 6 weeks after a background check. I eventually owned a high powered scoped .308 for hunting large game like moose and deer, a semi-auto 12 gauge for migratory wildfowl, a scoped .22 caliber for grouse and other upland gamebirds and for recreation I had a replica of an 1800s muzzle-loader.

I had friends that had .357 or .44 handguns because they were prospectors or did timber cruising for the forest industry and needed bear protection, but there were strict conditions attached people didn’t carry them around everywhere for “safety” creating a risk for everyone else. We could get all these weapons and still can, but they are tightly controlled. For a time here all firearms were supposed to be part of a national registry that the police could use to determine if anyone they might be interacting with had a weapon. The conservatives didn’t like it and killed the law over the protests of the police across the country because it saved lives.

The US can do much, much better, it doesn’t need to have hundreds of millions of guns in civilian hands where they kill about 30,000 civilians each year and create the kind of tensions and paranoia that lead people to frequently use those weapons.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Here’s a look at how the NRA now works for the gun industry not Americans and in part why thousands of Americans instead of being taught responsible gun ownership which used to be one of the main goals of the NRA are now being placed in someone else’s cross-hairs to make a few people a lot of money. Including the head of the NRA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1

In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence.

While that is still part of the organization’s core function, today less than half of the NRA’s revenues come from program fees and membership dues.

The bulk of the group’s money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources.

Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala’s, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson.

The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertising to industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990.

Additionally, some companies donate portions of sales directly to the NRA. Crimson Trace, which makes laser sights, donates 10 percent of each sale to the NRA. Taurus buys an NRA membership for everyone who buys one of their guns. Sturm Rugar gives $1 to the NRA for each gun sold, which amounts to millions. The NRA’s revenues are intrinsically linked to the success of the gun business.

The NRA Foundation also collects hundreds of thousands of dollars from the industry, which it then gives to local-level organizations for training and equipment purchases.

This shift is key to understanding why a coalition of hunters, collectors and firearm enthusiasts takes the heat for incidents of gun violence, like the shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, rather than the companies that manufacture and market assault weapons.

Under Wayne Lapierre the NRA is a front for gun manufacturers and in exchange we get children massacred in schools, people attending church murdered because of color or politics, politicians shot in the head because other politicians pulling the strings of their base and now the worst massacre of US civilians by another civilian apparently for no other reason than it was possible to do it.

And this was only made possible by the freedom in acquiring highly sophisticated and deadly weapons that have no place in the hands of civilians. Anyone who’s shot an AR-15 or AK-47 knows how deadly they are even in semi-auto mode and there are millions of these weapons across the US already in civilian hands. They can easily be modified to a level that is equal to a military grade weapon that can turn something like a music concert with 22,000 civilians enjoying their lives to a killing zone that many did not live through and most of those who did will never be the same.

All so that Wayne Lapierre and those he works for can make as much money as possible.

The NRA no longer has a place in the debate because it has willing placed itself in a position of a fundamental conflict of interest. The more guns that are sold the more money the NRA makes and the more money its leadership gets.

And more Americans die violently…

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Posted: 03 October 2017 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Anyone who thinks there is effective gun control in the US is full of the brown stuff.

In one typical month in 2015 there were about half as many guns sold in the US as there are in circulation in the UK or Australia.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/425272/september-americans-bought-least-176-million-guns-half-many-are-owned-all-australia

About 15 million sold in the US in 2015 alone on top of the already 300 million weapons in circulation in the US. The chances that none of these weapons will not be used in violent crime is effectively zero, the more guns there are in circulation the more people will be killed and wounded by them. People are not perfect, given the opportunity to commit violence some people will, we are not going to change human nature. What we can do is limit the opportunity for people to commit violence on the level that is made entirely possible by weapons that have reached a state of risk clearly not present over 200 years ago when the 2nd Amendment was drafted.

Few Americans live in the same conditions that were present 200 years ago, there are far more people living in densely packed cities. The US does not face the geopolitical situation it did in the 18th century. The main reason the 2nd Amendment is being protected by the NRA is that it allows millions of guns to be sold every year which sends millions of dollars either directly or indirectly to the NRA which is now part of the gun industry at multiple levels. There is no real separation of the NRA and gun makers.

This is what’s at stake for the NRA and gun makers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/02/americas-gun-business-by-the-numbers.html

$13.5 billion

Annual revenue of gun and ammunition manufacturing industry, with a $1.5 billion profit. (IBIS World)
$3.1 billion

Annual revenue of gun and ammunition stores, with a $478.4 million profit. (IBIS World)

It’s about money not lives for both the NRA and gun makers.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I honestly don’t feel any sane person can say we don’t need gun control.  I don’t pretend to say what measures should be adopted but I am willing to bet any and all gun control laws will reduce the carnage in our nation.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 09:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten - 03 October 2017 04:43 AM
Beltane - 02 October 2017 10:32 PM

Gun control is effective in America, the problem is that its impossible to tell when someone might snap.

For that to be true, there must be a lot less mental illness in the rest of the world. For that to be true, you would have to alter our understanding of the human mind.

Not necessarily. “Snapping” doesn’t require a person to have a history of mental illness, many factors can push some over the edge in a short amount of time. A relevant example that comes to mind is Charles Whitman and a brain tumor being the probable catalyst in his actions.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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How about we bring down the rate of firearm deaths per capita in this country—a whopping 10.54 per 100,00 population, so that it equals the rate of firarm deaths in the civilized countries of the world? Lets start with our neighbor, Canada, a minuscule 1.97 per 100,00 people; Sweden, 1.47; Norway, 1.75; Denmark, 1.28; Finland 3.25; Australia, 0.93; Germany, 1.01; France 2.83; Greece, 1.52; Hong Kong, 0.03; Hungary, 0.95: Iceland 1.25; India, 0.28; Ireland, 0.8; Israel, 2.09; Japan, 0.06, United Kingdom, 0.23; even Mexico has less per capita, only 7.64. The United States is outdone only by such countries as Columbia, Venezuela, Guatemala, Jamaica, Panama, Swaziland. All of these figures, incidentally,  include suicides, accidental and unintentional firearm deaths. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Why does the US, a reputedly civilized country, have such a high rate in all categories? I’ll leave it to you to figure it out. How about we keep strengthening gun control laws until we have a rate equal to Canada’s—a country socially, economically and racially very similar to ours, where hunting is also a countrywide sport?

Let’s start there, then maybe we can eventually match UK’s rate. Let’s figure out why US firearm death rates are so high and why other countries with similar social problems are so low. How about we have gun control laws like those countries have? Why not? Is there something so wrong with Americans and American government that we can’t do that?

LOid

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Beltane - 02 October 2017 10:32 PM
DougC.V2 - 02 October 2017 08:08 PM
Beltane - 02 October 2017 07:47 PM

Nobody has that idea, that’s why we already have a system in place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System

How the hell would you know, you’re not even American…

Well, even here at KGB hq, I can look up relevant information.

And there is no effective system of gun control in America, watch the video you pathetic troll, the asshole that blew 59 people away and wounded over 500 more some of which will also likely die had 20 guns with him and an automatic weapon that he burned through clip after clip with.

It was a war zone in Las Vegas and it remains one across the US as long as insane lobby groups like the NRA are allowed to dictate gun laws through their pets the republicans.

Incorrect.

Gun control is effective in America, the problem is that its impossible to tell when someone might snap.

Why are so few people “snapping” in countries with civilized gun control laws? What is it about America that so many people “snap”? One, thing, of course, is that we make sure anyone who is likely to “snap” is heavily armed with as many automatic weapons as possible. Maybe that’s why we have so many people “snapping” in the US and committing mass murder—along with the unconscionably high number of people who murder with firearms one at a time.

Lois

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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deros - 03 October 2017 04:02 AM

Though I have never been a “fan” of the Second Amendment I have supported it because I have always feared the possible consequences in changing our constitution.  That being said, I will no longer support the Second Amendment as written.

We could all support the Second Amendment if it were interpreted the way the founding fathers intended. The problem is it’s been twisted and pummeled to mean something entirely different, supported by two terrorist organizations—the NRA and the Republican Party.

Lois

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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LoisL - 03 October 2017 10:03 PM
Beltane - 02 October 2017 10:32 PM
DougC.V2 - 02 October 2017 08:08 PM
Beltane - 02 October 2017 07:47 PM

Nobody has that idea, that’s why we already have a system in place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System

How the hell would you know, you’re not even American…

Well, even here at KGB hq, I can look up relevant information.

And there is no effective system of gun control in America, watch the video you pathetic troll, the asshole that blew 59 people away and wounded over 500 more some of which will also likely die had 20 guns with him and an automatic weapon that he burned through clip after clip with.

It was a war zone in Las Vegas and it remains one across the US as long as insane lobby groups like the NRA are allowed to dictate gun laws through their pets the republicans.

Incorrect.

Gun control is effective in America, the problem is that its impossible to tell when someone might snap.

Why are so few people “snapping” in countries with civilized gun control laws? What is it about America that so many people “snap”? One, thing, of course, is that we make sure anyone who is likely to “snap” is heavily armed with as many automatic weapons as possible. Maybe that’s why we have so many people “snapping” in the US and committing mass murder—along with the unconscionably high number of people who murder with firearms one at a time.

Lois

LL

Please don’t feed the troll, it just makes it look like he has a position to debate.

There is no real gun control in a county that has 4.4% of the world population and 40% of guns in civilian hands and adds more per year than most other nations have in circulation.

And gun deaths off the charts compared to other comparable countries.

America has a gun death rate 600% higher than Canada and 1,600% higher than Germany.

This isn’t because Americans are all bloodthirsty lunatics, it’s because the few bloodthirsty lunatics there are in the country have easy access to weapons that allow them to do maximum damage.

Canada has a population of just over 36 million and 10 million guns. We have a gun death rate of 5 per million a year.

The US has 323 million people and over 310 million guns and a gun death rate of 29 per million a year.

You’d need the most complete police state in history to control that many guns and as I have family in the US who own guns and know gun collectors and competition shooters, I know for a fact that guns laws are at best a band aid, there are so many loopholes and grandfather clauses to make the NRA happy that they’re meaningless.

There needs to be a mandatory national screening system, restriction of the most dangerous weapons like handguns and assault rifles and a way to remove as many weapons as possible from the nations streets.

As long as all those guns are out there people will keep using them to kill other people and themselves. Any other claim is insane, the violence never ends and keeps getting worse as the NRA/gun makers consortium kills any bills that might kill their heavily armed golden goose.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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DougC.V2 - 02 October 2017 08:35 PM

Why there’s no real gun control in America right now.

https://mic.com/articles/127842/this-is-how-chicago-gets-flooded-with-illegal-guns#.o6ex2SiPn

Q: Where do you get an illegal firearm?

A: From someplace where it’s legal.

A new report from the Trace, a Michael Bloomberg-backed media organization seeking to resolve the roots of gun violence across the United States, sheds further light on the “apparent paradox” of Chicago’s consistently high rates of shootings despite the city boasting some of the country’s strictest gun laws.

In 2014, Chicago saw 390 murders and more than 2,500 shootings, adding to its reputation as one of the U.S. cities with the highest absolute numbers of shootings and killings (though not when adjusted for population). Chicago Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy blamed the city’s epidemic of violence on the widespread availability of guns. “If these guys [were] throwing rocks at each other we wouldn’t have this problem,” McCarthy told the Chicago Tribune (paywall).

Gun-rights supporters often point to Chicago’s endemic violence as evidence that gun control doesn’t work. But the Trace’s investigation suggests the real problem is the lax gun laws everywhere else.

Citing Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives data — which shows that approximately 60% of guns used in crimes across Illinois came from out of state — the Trace built an infographic demonstrating just how many guns flow into the city from states with less restrictive gun laws.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/09/459053141/straw-buyers-of-guns-break-the-law-and-often-get-away-with-it

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

America is an exceptional country when it comes to guns. It’s one of the few countries in which the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. But America’s relationship with guns is unique in another crucial way: Among developed nations, the US is far and away the most violent — in large part due to the easy access many Americans have to firearms. These charts and maps show what that violence looks like compared with the rest of the world, why it happens, and why it’s such a tough problem to fix.

It’s a very simple equation, countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths. Canada with much more effective guns laws has 5 gun deaths per 1 million people. The US with extremely lax gun laws has 30.

States with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths, the suicide rate in states with fewer guns is less and on and on. Guns kill that’s what they’re designed for, they’re not toys, they’re not tools, they’re not a way for people to seek vengeance outside the law which they are commonly used for in the US.

The articles here (and DougC’s argument) are very specious.

The message is that Chicago has sky-high gun crime because straw purchases are easy to make in the regions surrounding the city - which have lax gun laws. Bullshit.

Gun crime is high in Chicago only in the ghetto areas, for reasons obvious to everyone. The suburban and rural areas where these straw purchases occur don’t have massive gun crime. Its not like having lax gun laws is inherently dangerous; the local population is more predictive.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 10:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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LoisL - 03 October 2017 09:51 PM

Why does the US, a reputedly civilized country, have such a high rate in all categories? I’ll leave it to you to figure it out. How about we keep strengthening gun control laws until we have a rate equal to Canada’s—a country socially, economically and racially very similar to ours,
LOid

Very inaccurate.

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Posted: 03 October 2017 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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trollin’ along singin’ a song tralalala

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