Sexual Harassment
Posted: 10 November 2017 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25

Does anyone else think this wave of sexual harassment claims is getting out of hand? Absolutely true sexual harassment is dead wrong. No doubt about that, but what counts as SH? From a legal standpoint the key is repetition. If some gal for example rubs her ta-tas on a guy one time to get his attention, that’s not SH yet. If the guy says stop it, and she continues, THEN it’s SH. If Louis CK asks a comedian to come to his room, and she goes, then he starts working his taint, well he’s being a creep. If she then says STOP and he doesn’t, then he’s in trouble.

There might be other aspects too I’m sure. Maybe repetition (or failing to stop when asked to) isn’t the only thing - I don’t recall others. The thing I’m afraid will happen is sort of a the boy who cried wolf effect - real cases of SH will be dismissed as just another attempt by some woman,blah blah. Or it might have the reverse effect - some crazy women, say a far right nutjob, doesn’t want some Dem/Liberal to win the election? Merely accuse him of SH, and sure as the day is long, he’ll get labeled as such and out he goes. And worse yet, the more he resists, the more people believe HER.

What do you think? And no, I am not downplaying the importance of SH. In fact I’m arguing that the current wave may actually detract from its seriousness.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2017 11:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2016-10-10

Almost anything can be sexual harassment. If something makes an individual feel the slightest bit uncomfortable, it can be interpreted as sexual harassment. Repetition doesn’t matter legally, if a woman rubs her breasts against a co-worker one time, that counts as sexual harassment. If a man forgets to zip up after pissing in the office restrooms he could be investigated for sexual harassment.

As far as crying wolf too often - I see the point but that chain of events is virtually impossible, the legal frame of it all makes it too costly to ignore.

The big problem with sexual harassment policy is innocuous things can end up ruining reputations, careers, relationships etc.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 November 2017 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4314
Joined  2014-06-20
Beltane - 10 November 2017 11:07 PM

Almost anything can be sexual harassment. If something makes an individual feel the slightest bit uncomfortable, it can be interpreted as sexual harassment. Repetition doesn’t matter legally, if a woman rubs her breasts against a co-worker one time, that counts as sexual harassment. If a man forgets to zip up after pissing in the office restrooms he could be investigated for sexual harassment.

As far as crying wolf too often - I see the point but that chain of events is virtually impossible, the legal frame of it all makes it too costly to ignore.

The big problem with sexual harassment policy is innocuous things can end up ruining reputations, careers, relationships etc.

If sexual harrassment hadn’t been swept under the carpet since the dawn of man, it wouldn’t look so bad now. Women (and some male victims)are now speaking up where they couldn’t before. It only looks like an increase. It’s still the tip of the iceberg. There was so much victim blaming on the past that people were afraid to speak up. Conditions have changed enough now that some victims feel they are less likely to be publicly shamed for saying something as they had been in the past. There is no increase in sexual assault. There is only an increase in victims willing to speak up about it, at last. Predators are losing their cover.

Lois

 Signature 

[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner[/color]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 November 2017 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25

There also has to be some sort of statute of limitations here too. Even in the case of Roy Moore, who is the epitome of the evil conservative, these things happened over thirty years ago. If there’s a person amongst us who hasn’t changed one bit in 30 years, well then they’re a complete doornob idiot. People have to be allowed to realize their mistakes and change for the better. Obviously there are limits, for example, murder. But short of that we need to allow people to change.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 November 2017 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4181
Joined  2009-10-21
CuthbertJ - 16 November 2017 10:52 AM

There also has to be some sort of statute of limitations here too. Even in the case of Roy Moore, who is the epitome of the evil conservative, these things happened over thirty years ago. If there’s a person amongst us who hasn’t changed one bit in 30 years, well then they’re a complete doornob idiot. People have to be allowed to realize their mistakes and change for the better. Obviously there are limits, for example, murder. But short of that we need to allow people to change.

But he doesn’t realize his mistakes. He’s calling these women liars and analyzing handwriting.

I haven’t read the details yet, but Al Franken just had something come out and within hours he apologized.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 November 2017 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2016-10-10

Apropos this topic—Chronic harassers virtually never stop until they’re physically unable to do it anymore. Harvey Weinstein et al have been doing it for decades and will continue to do it once the current uproar subsides. However, individuals do exist who mindlessly engage in sexual harassment, see their mistakes and don’t repeat them; but none of the names in the headlines over the past month are in that category.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 November 2017 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25

What a difference too between Al Franken and Roy Moore. Franken is a real class act, whereas Moore just denies and denies.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2017 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25

But see, let’s look at Franken’s case. One woman says he stuck his tongue down her throat. Seriously? That’s not possible. Maybe he french kissed her. Ok, yuck, but did she ask him to stop? If she did and he didn’t THEN that’s SH. Otherwise it’s just Franken making a mistake. And the second accusation against Franken is even more telling. The woman claims he grabbed her bottom while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2011. Seriously? He takes thousands of such photos. And how does she know it wasn’t someone who bumped into her at the same time? How does she know it wasn’t just he put his hand behind her as it standard, and someone else didn’t just bump his hand and it went lower? Ridiculous, and yet to consider that grounds for him to resign? Bull. That’s turning SH into a sham and no one will take it seriously. And think of the effect on men in power who are absolutely beyond reproach? Do they take a chance that the woman they hire won’t claim some vague sexual misconduct years later?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2017 09:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2016-10-10
CuthbertJ - 22 November 2017 11:35 AM

But see, let’s look at Franken’s case. One woman says he stuck his tongue down her throat. Seriously? That’s not possible. Maybe he french kissed her. Ok, yuck, but did she ask him to stop? If she did and he didn’t THEN that’s SH. Otherwise it’s just Franken making a mistake.

Where are you getting your info, friend? Because its not simply a “mistake”.

Unwelcome kissing constitutes sexual harassment. The person being harassed is not required to ask the harasser to stop in order for it to be SH in the eyes of the law.

And the second accusation against Franken is even more telling. The woman claims he grabbed her bottom while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2011. Seriously? He takes thousands of such photos. And how does she know it wasn’t someone who bumped into her at the same time? How does she know it wasn’t just he put his hand behind her as it standard, and someone else didn’t just bump his hand and it went lower?

The accuser says he grabbed her ass tightly—which feels noticeably different that getting bumped into. She could be lying, of course.

Ridiculous, and yet to consider that grounds for him to resign? Bull. That’s turning SH into a sham and no one will take it seriously.

Many people think its a sham already, but that hardly matters because those who make the rules take it very seriously. The potential for devastating lawsuits and reputation damage is too high.

And think of the effect on men in power who are absolutely beyond reproach? Do they take a chance that the woman they hire won’t claim some vague sexual misconduct years later?

In this era of mixed professional environments there’s always a risk of that.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 November 2017 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25
Beltane - 22 November 2017 09:03 PM
CuthbertJ - 22 November 2017 11:35 AM

But see, let’s look at Franken’s case. One woman says he stuck his tongue down her throat. Seriously? That’s not possible. Maybe he french kissed her. Ok, yuck, but did she ask him to stop? If she did and he didn’t THEN that’s SH. Otherwise it’s just Franken making a mistake.

Where are you getting your info, friend? Because its not simply a “mistake”.

Unwelcome kissing constitutes sexual harassment. The person being harassed is not required to ask the harasser to stop in order for it to be SH in the eyes of the law.

And the second accusation against Franken is even more telling. The woman claims he grabbed her bottom while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2011. Seriously? He takes thousands of such photos. And how does she know it wasn’t someone who bumped into her at the same time? How does she know it wasn’t just he put his hand behind her as it standard, and someone else didn’t just bump his hand and it went lower?

The accuser says he grabbed her ass tightly—which feels noticeably different that getting bumped into. She could be lying, of course.

Ridiculous, and yet to consider that grounds for him to resign? Bull. That’s turning SH into a sham and no one will take it seriously.

Many people think its a sham already, but that hardly matters because those who make the rules take it very seriously. The potential for devastating lawsuits and reputation damage is too high.

And think of the effect on men in power who are absolutely beyond reproach? Do they take a chance that the woman they hire won’t claim some vague sexual misconduct years later?

In this era of mixed professional environments there’s always a risk of that.

I think you’re wrong there. If an act is unwelcome, and the person states that, that’s not SH. When the person continues even when asked not to, THEN it’s truly unwelcome. How does the man in this case know whether or not it’s welcome? By being told to stop. A man can kiss a woman over and over and two years later she says, his kisses were unwelcome. Why didn’t you ask him to stop? Well at the time I kinda I didn’t think to. Boom, not SH, just an awkward situation.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 November 2017 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1566
Joined  2012-04-25

If a woman shows up to a corporate job without a bra, with a very short tight dress wearing stilletto heels, is that sexual harassment?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 November 2017 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1626
Joined  2016-12-24
CuthbertJ - 24 November 2017 10:08 AM

If a woman shows up to a corporate job without a bra, with a very short tight dress wearing stilletto heels, is that sexual harassment?

Are you asking, if a woman arouses a man, is she the guilty party?

Profile