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I would like to talk about the god thingy
Posted: 01 January 2018 08:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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Boris - 01 January 2018 08:15 PM

there is nothing left of the original religion to say what is not Greek - its all Greek

As I understand it, Buddhism rejects a supreme deity. Is that the Greek version or from the original version?

Also, I read something about the “Four Truths”, is that the Greek version or from the original version?

Anyway, being an atheist myself, it all sounds Greek to me…..... oh oh

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Posted: 01 January 2018 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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well here’s the thing, Buddhism was dying out in 323 BCE so that is 2,323 years ago

and then the Greeks got involved with Buddhism and there is very little or nothing left of the pre Alexander religion

As I said it is classified as a Graeco-Indian religion but its 99.9999999% Greek

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Posted: 02 January 2018 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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Boris - 01 January 2018 08:29 PM

well here’s the thing, Buddhism was dying out in 323 BCE so that is 2,323 years ago

and then the Greeks got involved with Buddhism and there is very little or nothing left of the pre Alexander religion

As I said it is classified as a Graeco-Indian religion but its 99.9999999% Greek

Something like the King James version of the Bible, which would make modern Christianity a British religion?

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Posted: 02 January 2018 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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Boris - 01 January 2018 08:29 PM

well here’s the thing, Buddhism was dying out in 323 BCE so that is 2,323 years ago

and then the Greeks got involved with Buddhism and there is very little or nothing left of the pre Alexander religion

As I said it is classified as a Graeco-Indian religion but its 99.9999999% Greek

That’s a change in position. One of the many fallacies and communication errors you’ve committed.

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Posted: 02 January 2018 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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rubbish it is what I have said all along

Buddhism is a Greek religion because of Alexander - deal with it

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Posted: 02 January 2018 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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Write4U - 02 January 2018 01:08 AM
Boris - 01 January 2018 08:29 PM

well here’s the thing, Buddhism was dying out in 323 BCE so that is 2,323 years ago

and then the Greeks got involved with Buddhism and there is very little or nothing left of the pre Alexander religion

As I said it is classified as a Graeco-Indian religion but its 99.9999999% Greek

Something like the King James version of the Bible, which would make modern Christianity a British religion?

He actually speaks about two different concepts.

a) “Owning a religion”
King James’s Bible does not make christianity British, but turn to protestantism, and establishing Henry VIII as head of the Church of England made his own brand owned by the British.

In a similar way is Catholicism owned by the Church or the Vatican. Only people of jewish religion tend to remind, that it originated as a jewish messianic sect, led by John the Baptist. And it was not the only jewish messianic sect in years after Rome took Judea.

In this regard, Greeks do not “own” anything related to buddhism anymore (if they ever did).

b) “Origin of a religion”
This is usually not bound to single point of history, but describes a process in history of the particual religion. Apparenlty, Boris is claiming that Greeks had an influence at point of Alexander the Great got to Asia or India. Well, Greeks and Macedonians had their own helenic culture which differs a lot from Buddhism (regardles its form. There are two paths - one call Buddha a god, the other a philosopher. Its actually the smartest way how any releigion treats believers and thinkers i have ever seen).

The other problem is that most people do not care about this. Many christians I know simply believe that Betlehem is a city somewhere in Slovakia, and Jesus was born there 2000+ years ago. Devoted people around me are usually strangely ignorant that Jesus and the other in the story were living in Judea and were speaking arameic. They imagine them speaking slovak, or polish (because of John Paul I) or latin. Mentioning that all those people were jewish… and they start to twist and turn, claiming that those were first christians ever.

People more care about current state of the religion, its current owner and current tenets. Then these ideas are adopted as part of their identity, usually of cultural and national identity as well.

[ Edited: 02 January 2018 04:04 PM by Offler ]
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Posted: 02 January 2018 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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you miss my point

Alexander went East and built Greek Colonies some of which lasted for near 200 years

The Greeks there brought “Hellenisation” or the Greek way of doing things.

many converted to Buddhism and changed it forever - the Statues of the Buddha are just one of many examples - the Greeks made those statues as there were none before Alexander

so what Buddhism was like before Alexander nobody knows because it was over 2000 years that Alexander and the Greeks changed it into something new

Graeco-Buddhism, is the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BC and the 5th century AD in Bactria and the Indian subcontinent, corresponding to the territories of modern-day Afghanistan, Tajikistan, India, and Pakistan.

So unlike Christianity and the British - there were Germans and Swiss involved with Protestantism before Henry VIII

Nobody really knows what Buddhism was before Alexander and what remains had Greek influence for over 1000 years - so what it is now is Greek.

Boy some people just cannot accept new ideas

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Posted: 02 January 2018 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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Yes, Alexander the Great went to Asia, and he brough with him helenic culture and as it happens it mixed with local one.

Saying now that buddhism is Greek is like saying that whole Europe is Celtic. Remember that Buddhism spread further east from India, and was subjected to another cultural assimilation.

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Posted: 02 January 2018 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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Buddhism is classified as a Greco-Indian religion

Nobody can tell you what it was before Alexander but they can try and tell you - it that’s possible - that the religion was strongly influenced for more than 1000 years by the Greeks who converted to the religion and built statues and temples which did not exist before Alexander going to the East.

We are talking about an influence for more than 1000 years - an influence that made it into something it was never before

So QED Buddhism is a Greek religion because of Alexander the Great

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Posted: 02 January 2018 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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Boris - 02 January 2018 05:19 PM

Buddhism is classified as a Greco-Indian religion

There’s just so much to unpack with you. By time we address one thing, you’ve started with another. Offler used the correct terms and the correct cause and effect. He understands what you mean, and is trying to help you. You are trying to appear smarter than others, and instead showing the opposite. “Greco-Indian” is not a classification of religions in which Buddhism is one that fits. So, you’re using the words wrong. Greco-Indian describes a specific cultural blend. You understand some of the history of where it came from. That’s great, good for you for reading something. But saying things like “no one knows what Buddhism original was” is true, but useless.

In a sense, no one knows anything, but then you’ve made the words useless, so that’s useless to phrase it like that. With science, we can demonstrate what is known, always holding out for it to be disproven by a new demonstration. With history, it’s gone, you can’t go back and do any experiments. It has less certainty than other sciences. The further back you go, the less there is. So, yeah, pre-Alexandrian India, we’re not going to know much.

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Posted: 03 January 2018 03:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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Boris - 02 January 2018 05:19 PM

Buddhism is classified as a Greco-Indian religion

Nobody can tell you what it was before Alexander but they can try and tell you - it that’s possible - that the religion was strongly influenced for more than 1000 years by the Greeks who converted to the religion and built statues and temples which did not exist before Alexander going to the East.

We are talking about an influence for more than 1000 years - an influence that made it into something it was never before

So QED Buddhism is a Greek religion because of Alexander the Great

Well that claim has two-three flaws.

Culture is much wider term than just religion. Statues, coins, government…

Indo-greek culture was established mainly in current Iran. Since then Islam took over the area and culture as well. Also if you check here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

There is a table mentioning various branches, and sorry for using Wikipedia, dont have time to get better sources. Indo-greek was (until 6th century) one of the schools. Indo-greek does not equal greek.

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Posted: 03 January 2018 03:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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well tell me what Buddhism was before Alexander - it was obscure and dying out

And compare that to what it is now

the Statues and temples are all Greek - the first statues are Greek

the religion is Greek


Greek monks played a direct role in the upper hierarchy of Buddhism, and in its early dissemination. During the rule (165 BC - 135 BC) of the Greco-Bactrian King Menander I (Pali: “Milinda”), Mahadharmaraksita (literally translated as ‘Great Teacher/Preserver of the Dharma’) was “a Greek (Pali: Yona, lit. Ionian) Buddhist head monk,” according to the Mahavamsa (Chap. XXIX), who led 30,000 Buddhist monks from “the Greek city of Alasandra” (Alexandria of the Caucasus, around 150 km north of today’s Kabul in Afghanistan), to Sri Lanka for the dedication of the Great Stupa in Anuradhapura. Dharmaraksita (Sanskrit), or Dhammarakkhita (Pali) (translation: Protected by the Dharma), was one of the missionaries sent by the Mauryan emperor Ashoka to proselytize the Buddhist faith. He is described as being a Greek (Pali: “Yona”, lit. “Ionian”) in the Mahavamsa, and his activities are indicative of the strength of the Hellenistic Greek involvement during the formative centuries of Buddhism. Indeed, Menander I was famously converted to Buddhism by Nagasena, who was a student of the Greek Buddhist monk Dharmaraksita. Menander is said to have reached enlightenment as an arhat under Nagasena’s guidance and is recorded as a great patron of Buddhism. The dialogue of the Greek king Menander I (Pali “Milinda”) with the monk Nagasena comprises the Pali Buddhist work known as the Milinda Panha.

Buddhist monks from the region of Gandhara in Afghanistan, where Greco-Buddhism was most influential, later played a key role in the development and the transmission of Buddhist ideas in the direction of northern Asia. Greco-Buddhist Kushan monks such as Lokaksema (c. 178 AD) travelled to the Chinese capital of Loyang, where they became the first translators of Buddhist scriptures into Chinese.[32] Central Asian and East Asian Buddhist monks appear to have maintained strong exchanges until around the 10th century, as indicated by the Bezeklik Thousand Buddha Caves frescos from the Tarim Basin. In legend too Bodhidharma, the founder of Chán-Buddhism, which later became Zen, and the legendary originator of the physical training of the Shaolin monks that led to the creation of Shaolin Kung Fu, is described as a Buddhist monk from Central Asia in the first Chinese references to him (Yan Xuan-Zhi, 547 AD).[33] Throughout Buddhist art, Bodhidharma is depicted as a rather ill-tempered, profusely bearded and wide-eyed barbarian, and he is referred as “The Blue-Eyed Barbarian” (碧眼胡:Bìyǎn hú) in Chinese Chan texts.[34] In 485 AD, according to the 7th century Chinese historic treatise Liang Shu, five monks from Gandhara travelled to the country of Fusang (“The country of the extreme East” beyond the sea, probably eastern Japan), where they introduced Buddhism:

“Fusang is located to the east of China, 20,000 li (1,500 kilometers) east of the state of Da Han (itself east of the state of Wa in modern Kyūshū, Japan). (...) In former times, the people of Fusang knew nothing of the Buddhist religion, but in the second year of Da Ming of the Song dynasty (485 AD), five monks from Kipin (Kabul region of Gandhara) travelled by ship to Fusang. They propagated Buddhist doctrine, circulated scriptures and drawings, and advised the people to relinquish worldly attachments. As a result the customs of Fusang changed”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

[ Edited: 03 January 2018 03:48 AM by Boris ]
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Posted: 03 January 2018 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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All very interesting Boris. And nothing there says “Buddhism is Greek”. You have genetics and philosophy mixed up. I can go Ireland and learn Gaelic and eventually teach Gaelic, that wouldn’t make Gaelic America. When doing a history of philosophy, showing names and dates and positions isn’t only the beginning. You have to show writing where the precepts of the one commented on the other and then others followed one of those directions and changed how they acted because of it. Stuff like that.

i.e. Christianity is Jewish. Paul claimed to have actually had a vision of the messiah, a Jewish idea. Later people built on, or perhaps misunderstood what that meant, and Christianity became it’s own thing.

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Posted: 03 January 2018 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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Empire of Alexander the Great :

Alexander-Empire_323bc.jpg&action=click

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Posted: 03 January 2018 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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Judaism and Christianity are Persian - pure Zoroastrianism

Yes as you can see the Greeks were heavily involved in Buddhism because of Alexander

If not for the Greeks none of that would have happened

Karate is Greek Pankration - one of the events at the Greek ancient games - the Greek Monks spread it with Buddhism

Err if you click the link its all about Greco-Buddhism the word Greek is mentioned 99 times

Dharma was actually Greek

The Greek built the statues and temples

Here is a quote

The Mahavamsa, ch. 29, records that during Menander’s reign, a Greek thera (elder monk) named Mahadharmaraksita led 30,000 Buddhist monks from “the Greek city of Alexandria” (possibly Alexandria on the Caucasus, around 150 kilometres (93 mi) north of today’s Kabul in Afghanistan), to Sri Lanka for the dedication of a stupa, indicating that Buddhism flourished in Menander’s territory and that Greeks took a very active part in it.[18]

Several Buddhist dedications by Greeks in India are recorded, such as that of the Greek meridarch (civil governor of a province) named Theodorus, describing in Kharosthi how he enshrined relics of the Buddha. The inscriptions were found on a vase inside a stupa, dated to the reign of Menander or one of his successors in the 1st century BC.[19] Finally, Buddhist tradition recognizes Menander as one of the great benefactors of the faith, together with Ashoka and Kanishka the Great.

Buddhist manuscripts in cursive Greek have been found in Afghanistan, praising various Buddhas and including mentions of the Mahayana figure of “Lokesvararaja Buddha” (λωγοασφαροραζοβοδδο). These manuscripts have been dated later than the 2nd century AD.[20]

Alexander’s Empire was just the beginning as Menander - the descendant of one of Alexander’s generals of the House of Euthydemus continued to build cities and spread Greek thought and culture - it didnt just fall over with Alexander - it started with Alexander and continued.

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