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What about them Muslims
Posted: 09 January 2018 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Interesting experience tonight. I went to a local church meeting. It was about how we can understand our Muslim neighbors. We only have a few non-practicing Muslims in town, but anyway. The guy leading it was pretty good, a former pastor who had work for justice issues since the 60’s, even met Chavez a couple times. It was mostly a bunch of old folks with small town ideas about what Islam is, then he started talking about how Muslims are really okay people and their religion doesn’t actually tell them to oppress women or suicide bomb things. In fact the Quran says Jesus is cool.

A couple guys grumbled a bit, and pointed out Islam does not accept “the creed”. They weren’t specific but I knew what they meant. The pastor kept going on about how nice most Muslims are and how their values are the same as us nice Christians. I finally had enough and asked if he was saying that Jesus did not come here and die for our sins and to give us salvation if we believe. I didn’t say I was a believer or not but I think he took my question as if I was Bible literalist. He tried answering with a question “was their salvation before Jesus”. I wasn’t about to get into a theology discussion, I just said I’m going with the Bible and the creed, how do you define Christianity, and how can you say Muslims agree with it?

He kept his cool, but was defensive, but here’s the interesting thing. He schooled me that the creeds were written by emperors in the 4th century. I didn’t say I already knew that. Then he said he didn’t think the Nicene creed was Biblical, that it was not a good expression of Christian faith. I said I don’t usually hear that in a church. Then I let him get back to saying we should focus on the humanist values (except he didn’t say humanist). His wife tried to quote somebody, something about it being a paradox that we can love god without accepting that all the stories are true.

I left as soon as it ended. I’m not sure if I’ll go back next week.

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Posted: 09 January 2018 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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You might enjoy a view point from Bartholomew and what Mohammed gave to the Christians in Turkey.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patriarch-bartholomew-feels-crucified-17-12-2009/

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Posted: 10 January 2018 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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MikeYohe - 09 January 2018 10:59 PM

You might enjoy a view point from Bartholomew and what Mohammed gave to the Christians in Turkey.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patriarch-bartholomew-feels-crucified-17-12-2009/

“It all started in the Holy Land…because that’s…where Jesus is…from. ‘Cause nobody…disputes that. But the Christian religion began in Turkey,” Simon pointed out.

Actually, a lot of people dispute that. This has nothing to do with my meeting.

What this guy is teaching is that we need to change Christianity to a humanist organization if there is going to be peace among the religions of the world. His problem though, is he can’t say that. He has to do what every prophet and anonymous gospel writer has always done, he has to claim that Jesus told him what to say. He has to say the God of the Bible revealed this truth to him and then somehow also say it’s the same god that is called Allah. When it came to sorting out what we do with people who say Allah told them to kill apostates, he had nothing to offer.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Lausten - 09 January 2018 09:12 PM

Interesting experience tonight. I went to a local church meeting. It was about how we can understand our Muslim neighbors. We only have a few non-practicing Muslims in town, but anyway. The guy leading it was pretty good, a former pastor who had work for justice issues since the 60’s, even met Chavez a couple times. It was mostly a bunch of old folks with small town ideas about what Islam is, then he started talking about how Muslims are really okay people and their religion doesn’t actually tell them to oppress women or suicide bomb things. In fact the Quran says Jesus is cool.

A couple guys grumbled a bit, and pointed out Islam does not accept “the creed”. They weren’t specific but I knew what they meant. The pastor kept going on about how nice most Muslims are and how their values are the same as us nice Christians. I finally had enough and asked if he was saying that Jesus did not come here and die for our sins and to give us salvation if we believe. I didn’t say I was a believer or not but I think he took my question as if I was Bible literalist. He tried answering with a question “was their salvation before Jesus”. I wasn’t about to get into a theology discussion, I just said I’m going with the Bible and the creed, how do you define Christianity, and how can you say Muslims agree with it?

He kept his cool, but was defensive, but here’s the interesting thing. He schooled me that the creeds were written by emperors in the 4th century. I didn’t say I already knew that. Then he said he didn’t think the Nicene creed was Biblical, that it was not a good expression of Christian faith. I said I don’t usually hear that in a church. Then I let him get back to saying we should focus on the humanist values (except he didn’t say humanist). His wife tried to quote somebody, something about it being a paradox that we can love god without accepting that all the stories are true.

I left as soon as it ended. I’m not sure if I’ll go back next week.

Actually people like this make me madder than hard core christians. Hard core christians don’t know any better, and so I can see why they hang on to the mythology. But guys like your guy obviously know better and yet they still prop up organized religion. I have relatives who are similar. They hate everything about organized religion, but can’t seem to not support it both in deed and talk.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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CuthbertJ - 10 January 2018 11:01 AM

Actually people like this make me madder than hard core christians. Hard core christians don’t know any better, and so I can see why they hang on to the mythology. But guys like your guy obviously know better and yet they still prop up organized religion. I have relatives who are similar. They hate everything about organized religion, but can’t seem to not support it both in deed and talk.

Agreed. I think it is worse. It’s basically teaching you to be inconsistent and to make excuses for your lack of logic. I took some notes on how Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy. I also looked at the “about us” page of the church it was in. FYI, there are some nice young people who go there, and I was hoping this would be a more hip gathering. Anyway, they say things like “we know Jesus is Lord” but “we accept you wherever you are on your path”.

Sure, if you’re an alcoholic, they’ll accept you, but you can’t come into service with a drink in your hand. Or if you’re a Muslim, you can’t behead at the altar. These are behaviors with reasons. Religion creates a reason for things like believing Jesus is present in a cracker. There is no way to reconcile that with two different religions. The answer to dealing with people who label themselves as part of a religion is to require their conformity to secular and universal values. In other words, you can’t label someone moral based on their religious choice. Much of what the guy said agreed with this, but he also danced around it, allowing everyone in the room to keep their beliefs that actually lead to the immoral behavior of judging people based on their religion.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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What about them Muslims?  What is what about….. er about.  For what its worth, I grew up living beside a Muslim family and they were kind loving. hard working people.  So what about them, well I just told you what kind of people they were and are.  Sure there are differences in dogmas and creeds and isms in all religions but as human being, they, you and I were and are the same.And for those who want to hang onto creed and dogmas etc. I would like to remind you that the religions of Jews, Christians and Muslims evolved from the God of Abraham so we are all far more alike they we are different. So once again, what about them Muslims?

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Posted: 10 January 2018 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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what about them Muslims? they kill Christians (and atheists) in their ....hell holes, behead their children and rape their daughers and sell them as sex slaves (You tube is just up the street). After they do this, then they proceed to appropriate their churches and real estate. Turkey just declared “Government property” over 40 land mark type of historical churches after they driven all Christians that used them, either out of the country or killed them. They do this while demanding to be allowed to spread their poison across the west as they are building mosques across the US and claiming their religion is a religion of peace.  They don’t oppress women?!?!?! hahahaa. As a former Muslim who endured their evil from the inside out, I suggest you read the sourate of Nis’aa (book of women) in the coran which talks about women but NOT to them. it instructs how many lashed a woman should get for doing things such as raising her voice to her husband or not wearing the moslim scarf etc. .  In court, a testimony of one man equals that of 12 women. When it comes to inheritance, a woman gets only a half of what a man gets from her parents or whomever she gets an inheritance from. If a woman gets raped, she, Not the law, has to prove it was a rape or she will be put to death for commiting zina’ which means fornication I think. etc. etc. etc. That’s some non-oppressing to put things nicely.

Muslims are not kind. The coran as a book has no ethics whatsoever. Once time I asked a guy who claims the Muslims love Jesus “If you love him, why don’t you make him your lord and savior then?” I am still waiting for an answer.

They insure their countries are completely sterilized off religions like Christianity. But use the west’s democratic laws against it to colonize it. Since the US Government is for sale, they are paying their way through and succeeding. I heard they are working to create this new religion they plan to call Chrislam. We know what is will be like, It’s basically Is-FRAUD-lam around the globe.

That means only one thing: This forums days are counted. But Muslims are kind and sweet and people like me are “evil bigots”, right? I love Brigitte Gabrielle. She beats the phoniness and fraud out of them.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Islam is going to massacre the world just as Turkey, in killing 1.6 millions of them, tried to exterminate the Christian Armenians in 1916 and almost succeeded. As the saying goes “History repeats itself.”.

Any of you REALLY want to get educated in regard to what Is-FRAUD-lam really is. I recommend Brigitte Gabrielle, Robert Spencer and last but not the least, my Hero: Pamela Geller. May Archangel Michael Shield her…They are Extremely Knowledgeable about what that cult really stand for.

[ Edited: 10 January 2018 04:49 PM by InBetween ]
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Posted: 10 January 2018 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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No one here called you an evil bigot. Calm the heck down. I’d like to ask some questions and get some calm answers.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 07:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I can only find cryptic things like this.

This is because they say, “The Fire will certainly not touch us but for a limited number of days.” And thus their inventions deceive them in religion.

What translation of the an nissa do you recommend?

I found the verse where it says women only get half the inheritance that the men do, so thanks for that.

[ Edited: 10 January 2018 08:18 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 10 January 2018 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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deros - 10 January 2018 03:34 PM

What about them Muslims?  What is what about….. er about.  For what its worth, I grew up living beside a Muslim family and they were kind loving. hard working people.  So what about them, well I just told you what kind of people they were and are.  Sure there are differences in dogmas and creeds and isms in all religions but as human being, they, you and I were and are the same.And for those who want to hang onto creed and dogmas etc. I would like to remind you that the religions of Jews, Christians and Muslims evolved from the God of Abraham so we are all far more alike they we are different. So once again, what about them Muslims?

I didn’t go to find out about Muslims as much as about what my community thought about Muslims. Not that I know all there is to know about Muslims, so I might have learned something, but turns out, this guy was not a good teacher.

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Posted: 10 January 2018 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Lausten - 10 January 2018 07:03 PM

I can only find cryptic things like this.
Her owb husbnd.
This is because they say, “The Fire will certainly not touch us but for a limited number of days.” And thus their inventions deceive them in religion.

What translation of the an nissa do you recommend?

I found the verse where it says women only get half the inheritance that the men do, so thanks for that.

In many countries, including those where Christianity was supreme, women had no right to any inheritance, even from a woman’s own husband.  He could disinherit her or leave her a pittance. A woman’s inheritances often went to her husband or some other male family member—women being incapable of handling money. (Who knows what she might have gotten up to of she got her hands on a substantial sum of money!)

Islam may be ahead of the game if it says wives get half.


“During most of American history, women’s lives in most states were circumscribed by common law brought to North America by English colonists. These marriage and property laws, or “coverture,” stipulated that a married woman did not have a separate legal existence from her husband. A married woman or feme covert was a dependent, like an underage child or a slave, and could not own property in her own name or control her own earnings, except under very specific circumstances. When a husband died, his wife could not be the guardian to their under-age children. Widows did have the right of “dower,” a right to property they brought into the marriage as well as to life usage of one-third of their husbands’ estate. Though a married woman was not able to sue or sign contracts on her own, her husband often did have to obtain her consent before he sold any property his wife had inherited.”


https://www.library.hbs.edu/hc/wes/collections/women_law/

Do you remember that Shakespeare’s will left his wife the 2nd best bed in the house.

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Posted: 11 January 2018 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Lausten - 10 January 2018 12:24 PM

Or if you’re a Muslim, you can’t behead at the altar.

LOL This is great, and going by the current state of Christianity it will probably become a legit edict sooner rather than later.

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Posted: 12 January 2018 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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LoisL - 10 January 2018 09:36 PM

Islam may be ahead of the game if it says wives get half.

Good point Lois. There is a good case to made that Islamic philosophies about women were progressive for the 7th century. But “progressive” is relative. That was lost on this class. A couple people noted a couple of the recent rights that women gained, like driving, but the pastor moved on before I had a chance to say that women had those rights, and many more, in Afghanistan in the 1960’s. It’s the myth of progress only going in one direction. For the Muslim culture, it has been forward and back, recently very much back. Christianity too, but the backwards movement has been more contained and localized.

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Posted: 14 January 2018 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I mean I certainly don’t agree with most creeds and ideas in the Quran. But the most logical answer is that it depends on the Muslim. Not all of them are suicide bombers that’s a stupid meme. What the Muslim world needs is a hefty dollop of secularism to prevent harsh literal translation of their scriptures, you know, like most of the Western world. Or better…. give up Islam, but good luck with that lol.

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Posted: 15 January 2018 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Rhea70 - 14 January 2018 07:54 PM

I mean I certainly don’t agree with most creeds and ideas in the Quran. But the most logical answer is that it depends on the Muslim. Not all of them are suicide bombers that’s a stupid meme. What the Muslim world needs is a hefty dollop of secularism to prevent harsh literal translation of their scriptures, you know, like most of the Western world. Or better…. give up Islam, but good luck with that lol.

There are different ways to express the Muslim culture, some of them pretty bad, but they can be judge based on what I think are the universal values of not blowing up innocent people. As for the secularization, even those less radical consider that antithetical to their religion. When I got home from the class, I picked up a short book that my niece used in her religious studies degree. It’s about how Islam has always been tightly tied to economic and social issues. Muhammad was a merchant who built an army, and the generations after went on to build an empire. It was tolerant of other religions, to a point, and it never quite got things like women’s rights, but still.

So, the book suggested inter-religious dialog needs to begin with a meta-religious conversation, one where they discuss the purpose of religion. He wasn’t really clear on how they could reconcile the difference of their mythology, or deal with problems like thinking there is only one true way to worship God/Allah. The book was written in 2006, and as far as I can tell, no one has followed up on his work, but it was an interesting idea. He didn’t mention it, but if done right, I think it should consider scientific thought as well. After all, science has contributed to the social justice and equality issues like slavery, equality and gay rights more than anything.

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