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Brains don’t exist?
Posted: 25 January 2018 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Write4U - 24 January 2018 07:32 PM
Titanomachina - 23 January 2018 10:44 AM

Yeah you’re right. There was also some by about concepts and how we think they help us to understand the world but that they are illusions? I sounds similar to Buddhism but I guess they mean things like the concept of anger, or night, or red. There just seems to be a big thing about it in spirituality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9MS701rvoQ&t=2566s

Like at this video

I have a suspicion that our abstract thoughts are caused by the bio-chemical functions of the brain, in addition to the electrical Turing (like) system of processing information.

After all, that is the one identifiable difference between organic brain functions and AI circuit functions.

Why is it that when we have blood or urine tests, we look for chemical anomalies.

Oddly, when we have an MRI, they test only for electrical signals, but not for chemicals.

I had nitrogen narcosis once while scuba diving. Fortunately I was accompanied by experiences divers which took me up halfway and let my body absorb the nitrogen, after which I was just fine. But nitrogen has nothing to do with electrical energy, it’s a bio-chemical molecule.

Offler mentioned “endorphins”, which again are bio-chemicals, not electrical energy.  In living organisms, thought is a combination of electro/chemical functions.

Did you see the video?

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Posted: 25 January 2018 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Yes I did and it seems to mesh well with Anil Seth’s presentation.

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

IMO, emotions are not a result of brain computations, but a result of chemical reactions to the brain computation.

But logic and reason can conquer fear. In my little adventure while scuba diving, Nitrogen Narcosis caused me to lose all sense of direction. I fact it felt I was spinning in the water while I was purposely stying as still as possible.

When I rapped my air tank to let my diving buddies know that I was in trouble. they immediately responded and tried to give me orientation.

One of the diver picked up an empty beer can from the bottom and filled it with air, then released it to show which was up.
The other diver had a speargun and came swimming fast toward me.

For a moment I was panicking, interpreting these actions as making fun of me and trying to kill me.

But then I forced myself to analyze the situation.  I was in trouble..  My buddies were friends and their actions were to help me. they had no motive other than to help me. After that rationalization, my panick subsided and I allowed them to grab hold of me and escort me to the surface.

Thus the example in the movie that emotions are much stronger than rational thought is somewhat pessimistic. I rationalized my panick away with assessing my situation and trying to understand what my buddies were doing.

IMO, emotions are not produced directly by the brain, but by the chemical responses which are indeed very powerfull as Anil Seth explained in his presentation.

It’s worth the watch and may shed further light on how the brain functions either in a form of “controlled” or “uncontrolled’ hallucination.

It’s fascinating stuff!

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Posted: 26 January 2018 07:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Write4U - 25 January 2018 06:59 PM

Yes I did and it seems to mesh well with Anil Seth’s presentation.

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

IMO, emotions are not a result of brain computations, but a result of chemical reactions to the brain computation.

But logic and reason can conquer fear. In my little adventure while scuba diving, Nitrogen Narcosis caused me to lose all sense of direction. I fact it felt I was spinning in the water while I was purposely stying as still as possible.

When I rapped my air tank to let my diving buddies know that I was in trouble. they immediately responded and tried to give me orientation.

One of the diver picked up an empty beer can from the bottom and filled it with air, then released it to show which was up.
The other diver had a speargun and came swimming fast toward me.

For a moment I was panicking, interpreting these actions as making fun of me and trying to kill me.

But then I forced myself to analyze the situation.  I was in trouble..  My buddies were friends and their actions were to help me. they had no motive other than to help me. After that rationalization, my panick subsided and I allowed them to grab hold of me and escort me to the surface.

Thus the example in the movie that emotions are much stronger than rational thought is somewhat pessimistic. I rationalized my panick away with assessing my situation and trying to understand what my buddies were doing.

IMO, emotions are not produced directly by the brain, but by the chemical responses which are indeed very powerfull as Anil Seth explained in his presentation.

It’s worth the watch and may shed further light on how the brain functions either in a form of “controlled” or “uncontrolled’ hallucination.

It’s fascinating stuff!

I saw the presentation but it isn’t related to the YouTube video. More like the YouTube is trying to find a way to lend credence to spirituality by creating doubt about materialism, science, and the mind.

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Posted: 26 January 2018 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Or how one of the comments said that loving a significant other is the greatest self deception force of all.

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Posted: 26 January 2018 08:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Titanomachina - 26 January 2018 01:49 PM

Or how one of the comments said that loving a significant other is the greatest self deception force of all.

Yep, Seth would place that in the “uncontrolled hallucination” category.

But a dog may give his unconditional love to his human significant other. If that human deserves this fielty is another question.

[ Edited: 26 January 2018 08:23 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 27 January 2018 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Write4U - 26 January 2018 08:15 PM
Titanomachina - 26 January 2018 01:49 PM

Or how one of the comments said that loving a significant other is the greatest self deception force of all.

Yep, Seth would place that in the “uncontrolled hallucination” category.

But a dog may give his unconditional love to his human significant other. If that human deserves this fielty is another question.

So if loving your significant other is a hallucination then it’s meaningless. Something to abandon to have a truer sense of the world

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Posted: 29 January 2018 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Titanomachina - 27 January 2018 08:55 AM
Write4U - 26 January 2018 08:15 PM
Titanomachina - 26 January 2018 01:49 PM

Or how one of the comments said that loving a significant other is the greatest self deception force of all.

Yep, Seth would place that in the “uncontrolled hallucination” category.

But a dog may give his unconditional love to his human significant other. If that human deserves this fielty is another question.

So if loving your significant other is a hallucination then it’s meaningless. Something to abandon to have a truer sense of the world

Its meaningless only if you perceive it as meaningless.

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Posted: 30 January 2018 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I just don’t get how after seeing the entire video you can walk away with anything positive. It’s like saying everything you know is a lie.

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Posted: 31 January 2018 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Titanomachina - 30 January 2018 07:39 PM

I just don’t get how after seeing the entire video you can walk away with anything positive. It’s like saying everything you know is a lie.

Sharing the “heureka moment” or “i knew it”. Thats how social media works. And religion.

You know that “water which is part of ice, part water, part steam” does not explain Holy Trinity, but there will be enough people to get completely baffled about it. Instead of getting rational and dismiss the idea, they will get emotional and like the idea and the feeling it gives.

Same principle.

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Posted: 31 January 2018 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Titanomachina - 27 January 2018 08:55 AM
Write4U - 26 January 2018 08:15 PM
Titanomachina - 26 January 2018 01:49 PM

Or how one of the comments said that loving a significant other is the greatest self deception force of all.

Yep, Seth would place that in the “uncontrolled hallucination” category.

But a dog may give his unconditional love to his human significant other. If that human deserves this fielty is another question.

So if loving your significant other is a hallucination then it’s meaningless. Something to abandon to have a truer sense of the world

No, it’s not meaningless, everything we experience is a “best guess”, usually a “controlled hallucination”, but this ability is rather fragile and can fall apart quite easily, especially when “emotion” interferes with “clear thinking” (making a best guess).

[ Edited: 31 January 2018 08:39 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 31 January 2018 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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@ Titanomachina,

Perhaps you looked at the wrong channel. It was not Youtube but Ted Talks.

In case you missed it, I’ll provide an excerpt and the link again.

Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience—and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it. How does this happen? According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we’re all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality.”

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

[ Edited: 31 January 2018 08:54 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 February 2018 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Write4U - 31 January 2018 08:51 PM

@ Titanomachina,

Perhaps you looked at the wrong channel. It was not Youtube but Ted Talks.

In case you missed it, I’ll provide an excerpt and the link again.

Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience—and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it. How does this happen? According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we’re all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality.”

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

I was referring to the link about that actualized channel, how he lists like 60+ self deceptions. So does that make him right that the mind is some kind of deceiver or as he would like to put it “decartes evil demon”. To think that everything I know is a lie is terrifying.

Also what about concepts? Does not naming something and qualifying it limit our understanding of what it is? Does it make things worse?

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Posted: 02 February 2018 12:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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@Titanomachina,

Perhaps you looked at the wrong channel. It was not Youtube but Ted Talks.

In case you missed it, I’ll provide an excerpt and the link again. [quote ]Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience—and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it. How does this happen? According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we’re all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality.”

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

I was referring to the link about that actualized channel, how he lists like 60+ self deceptions. So does that make him right that the mind is some kind of deceiver or as he would like to put it “decartes evil demon”. To think that everything I know is a lie is terrifying.

Also what about concepts? Does not naming something and qualifying it limit our understanding of what it is? Does it make things worse?

No, ususually the brain is able to make a best guess to be functionally adequate for the human environment. This is how we can “agree” on what seems to be our reality. 

But Seth also demonstrated how fragile (malleable) our perceptions are. The chessboard and the fake arm are perfect examples how the brain can be fooled into interpreting things incorrectly.

I wonder if a computer would catch the optical illusion on the chessboard. I would think yes, because it would analyze the color of the square without trying to associate it with any kind of shadow effect. It would not try to make a best guess relative to it’s neighboring squares.

[ Edited: 02 February 2018 12:21 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 02 February 2018 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Titanomachina - 01 February 2018 02:31 PM

To think that everything I know is a lie is terrifying.

So, don’t think that. Is that so hard?

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Posted: 02 February 2018 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Lausten - 02 February 2018 06:55 AM
Titanomachina - 01 February 2018 02:31 PM

To think that everything I know is a lie is terrifying.

So, don’t think that. Is that so hard?

Moreover, we know that not everything is a lie.  Science is full of proven truths, just from observation that some things always behave in a certain way at macro scale.

The problem with our brains is that it is not a single processing machine. It multitasks (both electrically and bio-chemically) which produces sentience but we don’t know yet how it does it.

We’ve only recently been able to test the various functions of the brain, but we have only just begun to explore the mind and how it forms “best guesses”.

But the concept of the “mirror neuron system and function” fascinates me by it’s potential utilitarian properties.

[ Edited: 02 February 2018 06:13 PM by Write4U ]
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