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Question- I think it goes here
Posted: 07 April 2007 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”]although cgallaga is right to suggest that I have been known to be wrong in the past.

I did???

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Posted: 07 April 2007 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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For cgallaga:  Doug seems to be the resident philosophical historian.  I knew the quotation, and believed it was Newton who said it, but I wasn’t sure.  I was sure Doug would correct me if I was wrong, so my comment was a preemptive strike.  LOL

Mriana, I suggest you avoid getting any information about reincarnation for your son.  That just allows him to further demonstrate his independence by not reading it.  Instead, just challenge him. “Children accept things by authority.  Adults do their one investigation, and are willing to change their ideas based on what they find out.  Believe what you want, but be honest with yourself and admit how you arrived at them.”  (That should piss him off.  smile  )

Occam

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Posted: 07 April 2007 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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OK, it just seemed an odd way of stating it is all. Smelled like church.  LOL

The actual quote is:

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
Isaac Newton, Letter to Robert Hooke, February 5, 1675

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Posted: 07 April 2007 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”][quote author=“Occam”]There is obvious tension here, so when you take the “mind only” stuff too literally, the teacher hits you with a stick. That’s the Madhyamika stuff talking ...

May also have some elements of Taosim as well, that wouldn’t surprise me.

Well, I hit him with a stick, but he didn’t like it.  LOL  So what is exactly Taoism?  I know it’s a philosophy of life, but other than that, I’m a bit clueless.

[quote author=“Occam”]Mriana, I suggest you avoid getting any information about reincarnation for your son. That just allows him to further demonstrate his independence by not reading it. Instead, just challenge him. “Children accept things by authority. Adults do their one investigation, and are willing to change their ideas based on what they find out. Believe what you want, but be honest with yourself and admit how you arrived at them.” (That should piss him off.  smile  )

Yes, you are indeed right. I was that age once and I can remember how much I resisted what my mother had to say.  Still do sometimes, esp on matters of religion.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 April 2007 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen#History_.28Early_Chan_Buddhism.29

It must be noted, however, that this traditional tale regarding the origins of Chan/Zen Buddhism is not considered historically accurate as many historians have noted the existence of Zen Buddhism before the purported arrival of Bodhidharma and have suggested that Zen is a unique development of Buddhism influenced by Chinese philosophical thought, including Taoism.

raspberry

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Historical_Roots_of_Zen_by_Stan_Rosenthal

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nagarjuna/roots_of_zen.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm

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Posted: 07 April 2007 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Taoism (pronounced daoism) basically teaches you to go with the flow. It’s like a river. It was developed in China ‘round the same time as Confucainism, by Chuang Tse. The idea is that the wu wei teaches you to act like a river. It’s like… passive agressivenes… The water is soft, but given time it wears away mountains. Think Winnie the Pooh. Pooh is the uncarved block, or P’u. Simple minded but not stupid. Rabbit is like Confucius. Eyore is like Buddha. Anyway, that’s what I learned when they made us read the Tao of Pooh in school… It’s hard to explain but I understand it… rolleyes Kind of.

I didn’t like it much though… must be the Confucianist in me…

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Posted: 08 April 2007 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Thanks for the links, cgallaga.  smile

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 09 April 2007 03:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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All I know is what I read.  Some time ago, I picked up a little book on one of the bargain shelves at Barnes & Noble called “Buddhist Reflections on Everyday Life” by some chap calling himself Paramananda.  Here is a direct quote from Chapter Nine:

Reincarnation is a misunderstanding of the Buddha’s teaching, as it implies that something like a soul is reborn in another body.  But Buddhism is very clear in denying that there is a soul—in the sense of some kind of enduring and unchanging entity—or anything else that is available to be reincarnated.  Buddhism avoids the two extremes of complete annihilation and eternal life.

I’m not sure what he means by this (and to be fair, the book is apparently not intended as a course in Buddhist teachings but as a collection of meditations).  Elsewhere he speaks of a “continuity of consciousness” after death, but I don’t think he has anything like what we think of as a “soul” in mind.

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Posted: 09 April 2007 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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I’m not sure entirely what he means either. Certainly the Buddha did not believe in a substantial soul—he believed that all we were were bundles of mental states, in a sort of causal relation. (Insofar as we can reconstruct the earliest roots of buddhist teaching). But there is room on such a view to make sense of reincarnation—namely that the last mental state before you die has some sort of ongoing causal relation with the first mental state belonging to another body, so all that “you” are persists in the new body.

And as a matter of historical fact, Buddhists have always believed in reincarnation and karma.

One might make a revisionist sort of Buddhism that denies reincarnation and karma, but you’d basically be talking about a religion with only a very small number of believers, most all in the west.

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 09 April 2007 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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So they don’t see it as Hindus see reincarnation?

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 09 April 2007 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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[quote author=“Mriana”]So they don’t see it as Hindus see reincarnation?

Hummm ... no. Hinduism is a big religion (or maybe even a group of similar religions) so I hesitate to describe it too simply, but in general Hinus believe in a substantial soul (called the “atman”) that is immortal and outlasts the life of the body. Many Hindus believe that this soul is actually identical with Brahman (“atman = Brahman”). Brahman may be viewed as something like god or the universe, depending on how one interprets it.

The Buddhist belief is generally described as “anatman”, or “no-soul”. On the Buddhist view, there is no substantial soul that persists during life or after death. All of you that persists from moment to moment is a causally linked stream of mental states. Hence reincarnation won’t involve the persistance of a substantial soul. It’s got to simply be a matter of causal influence between the last mental state in one body and the first in another.

Many Buddhists believe that your dying thoughts are very important, for that very reason ...

Of course, I needn’t repeat here that there is no evidence for karma or reincarnation.

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Posted: 09 April 2007 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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OK that’s what I thought.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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