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Belief in the resurrection?
Posted: 07 April 2007 01:17 AM   [ Ignore ]
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To believe in the Christian God one must accept on faith the belief in the resurrection. Any deviation from this belief does not fall into the parameters of the Christian faith. The foundation of the Christian faith is bound by the resurrection. Without the resurrection, there can be no salvation. It is unrealistic to believe one can return from death and to promise everlasting life within the Kingdom of God because of this belief places the follower in the control of the institutions that create and enforce acceptable adherence to this belief. This form of religious persuasion can only end in corruption because of its false or unrealistic foundation. Believing that our innate being is wrapped in damnation and is released by the resurrection creates a sense of powerlessness for the follower and perpetuates an environment of hopelessness. Do you think Humanity’s purpose should be reestablished in harmony with a more realistic destiny?

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Posted: 07 April 2007 01:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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This idea also cause a lot of feelings of guilt, that one was born in sin, which is not true.

As for your question, I’m not sure how to answer it.  What do you mean by destiny?  If there is no afterlife, then what is the destiny you ask about? It’s a rather confusing question.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 April 2007 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The destiny of humanity deals with the why and how humanity should look at its purpose for being.

Even if one does not believe that there is a purpose for humanity there is an innate driving force that perpetuates its continuation throughout time. Like all religious beliefs, I too believe there is a reason for humanity’s existence however; I also believe most religions have false understandings of humanity’s purpose.

The universe exists so it can become known and humanity is the knowing agent. This event is the highest final form within the structure of the universe. All other actions within the universe are either moving towards this event, coming from this event, or stuck in a non-motion towards this event.

It is either true that humanity is the only living knowing entity that can communicate its awareness of Being or there exist others throughout the universe.

Imagine Humanity’s responsibility to the universe if Earth’s environment is the only place capable of sustaining living knowing entities.

With Humanity’s demise comes the end of the known universe.

I believe, Humanity’s purpose must be reestablished in harmony with its true destiny, which is its enduring awareness of being.

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Posted: 07 April 2007 03:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Well, then, and I know this sounds a bit Trekkish but it’s also apart of Humanism too, our destiny is striving to better ourselves and humanity.  It is to make this place better for future generations.  That’s my opinion at least and this includes a variety of things, like the environment.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 April 2007 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I’m sorry, but this whole destiny and meaning of life stuff is a bunch of offal.  There is no destiny (the word implies predetermination which leads to - by whom), and there is no intrinsic meaning to life.  We all develop the meaning of our lives by our actions. 

I agree that a worthwhile goal is to better (however we define better) ourselves, but it’s not our destiny.  And if we don’t assure that our actions work toward bettering ourselves, we haven’t made any progress toward generating meaning for ourselves.

Occam

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Posted: 07 April 2007 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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[quote author=“Occam”]I’m sorry, but this whole destiny and meaning of life stuff is a bunch of offal. There is no destiny (the word implies predetermination which leads to - by whom), and there is no intrinsic meaning to life. We all develop the meaning of our lives by our actions.

So you believe in freewill? I speak of humanity as a whole not the individual. What will be the outcome to the human experience; self-destruction, or a perpetual appreciation for the opportunity to be aware of being?

[quote author=“Occam”]I agree that a worthwhile goal is to better (however we define better) ourselves, but it is not our destiny. And if we don’t assure that our actions work toward bettering ourselves, we haven’t made any progress toward generating meaning for ourselves. Occam

I think this is self-indulgence. Again, if “we” humanity has a goal to better itself then humanity has chosen a path of sustainability. Unfortunately, most religions expect a catastrophic end to humanity because of religious institutions false assumption that each human has an inherent inability to refuse the temptations of “evil.” Sorry I do not buy it. Humanity’s purpose is to communicate its awareness of being which in turn places the universe in the realm of the known. This can be its destiny if “Humanity” so chooses.

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Posted: 07 April 2007 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Those invisible pink unicorns stole another of my socks out of the washing machine on Good Friday.

Do you think there’s a chance that it will resurrected on Sunday?

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Finding truth is an end to that search.

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Posted: 07 April 2007 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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What I wanna know is: If he was really god, why the flock did it take 3, count em THREE days to work out the miracle?!?!?! Technical difficulties? Spring Break?

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Posted: 08 April 2007 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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[quote author=“Entity”]So you believe in freewill?

NO, that’s not what I said or even implied, however, I don’t want to get into the subject of free will vs. determinism.  It’s been driven into the ground in a number of threads in the Philosophy Forum.

[quote author=“Entity”][quote author=“Occam”]I agree that a worthwhile goal is to better (however we define better) ourselves, but it is not our destiny. And if we don’t assure that our actions work toward bettering ourselves, we haven’t made any progress toward generating meaning for ourselves.

I think this is self-indulgence. Again, if “we” humanity has a goal to better itself then humanity has chosen a path of sustainability.

NO, again.  You misinterpreted what I was saying.  I was talking about personal, that is, individual goals and actions, not “humanity”.

Occam

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Posted: 08 April 2007 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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[quote author=“cgallaga”]What I wanna know is: If he was really god, why the flock did it take 3, count em THREE days to work out the miracle?!?!?! Technical difficulties? Spring Break?

3 like the number 7 and 6 has some sort of special meaning in Christianity, if I recall correctly.  3 in 1 deity, 7 days to create and resting on the 7th, 666 supposedly in Revelations (note 6 is imperfect too), 3 days to ressurrect, the list goes on and on.  Also, the Gospels were written in accordence to the Hebrew litergical calendar.  Jesus could not stay on the cross due to the Hebrew holiday, Passover beginning at sunset, so since he was still alive and were not suppose to break his bones, his side was pierced.  Now the third day has something special to the Hebrews, but I have to look it up again to recall it correctly.

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Mriana
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Posted: 08 April 2007 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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I strongly second Occam. Believing there is some grand purpose to the Universe is just another kind of religion. The Universe could care less whether we know it or not (i.e. the tree makes sound waves whether we hear them or not). We exist because of a concatenation of fortuitous events that allowed us to evolve, and we make purpose or meaning for ourselves. As such, bettering ourselves, helping others, striving towards understanding are all good choices for meaning or purpose.

I can’t speak for Humanity, but I doubt it exists. Individuals exist and do things, and groups of individuals have emergent properties that result from the behavioral phenomena of groups, but you seem to be reifying the abstract concept of Humanity and then assuming some teleological explanation for it is necessary. I disagree.

As for free will, I also agree the subject seems to be a dead end that divides people into camps with no argument yet successful in these boards at bridging the gap between them. I believe, FWIW, that our ethical choices have meaning and that we are responsible for the choices we make even though there is no “libertarian” free will or extraphysical causation. A complex and difficult to predict deterministic system with a perception, illusory or not, of deliberating and choosing can reasonably viewed as doing so in a meaningful sense even if this doesn’t meet the definition of “free will” as it emerged from religous tradition.

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Posted: 08 April 2007 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]I strongly second Occam. Believing there is some grand purpose to the Universe is just another kind of religion. The Universe could care less whether we know it or not (i.e. the tree makes sound waves whether we hear them or not). We exist because of a concatenation of fortuitous events that allowed us to evolve, and we make purpose or meaning for ourselves. As such, bettering ourselves, helping others, striving towards understanding are all good choices for meaning or purpose.

[quote author=“Occam”][quote author=“Entity”]So you believe in freewill?

NO, that’s not what I said or even implied, however, I don’t want to get into the subject of free will vs. determinism. It’s been driven into the ground in a number of threads in the Philosophy Forum. Occam

It seems to me that when you individualize the self one becomes self indulgent with the choices made. “Who cares about humanity as long as my purpose is pursued,” one might say. I am addressing the whole of humanity and how it interacts with the environment of the universe and not how the “individual” interacts. As both of you seem to say, it is about the self but the self is only responsible to the self. I am concerned with how the whole of humanity interacts within the place it exist. Humanity not the self has an opportunity to communicate its awareness of being where no other known creature can do the same. This ability can be a good thing or a curse for the whole. I am not so confident to assume that my individual actions can have any impact on the whole of the universe and of course as an individual, I do not have a purpose, but as part of humanity, I can contribute to the cause of why we exist. If humanity does not exist then the universe would be unknown and it follows that with the existence of humanity the universe “is” known to exist. This is “our” humanity’s possible destiny, to choose to continue or to self-destruct.

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Posted: 08 April 2007 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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[quote author=“Mriana”]

3 like the number 7 and 6 has some sort of special meaning in Christianity, if I recall correctly.  3 in 1 deity, 7 days to create and resting on the 7th, 666 supposedly in Revelations (note 6 is imperfect too), 3 days to ressurrect, the list goes on and on.  Also, the Gospels were written in accordence to the Hebrew litergical calendar.  Jesus could not stay on the cross due to the Hebrew holiday, Passover beginning at sunset, so since he was still alive and were not suppose to break his bones, his side was pierced.  Now the third day has something special to the Hebrews, but I have to look it up again to recall it correctly.

OK. I got all this apologetics stuff well and fine.

But what I am saying is IF he was god and he wanted to get his message across…given all the other circumstances.

There would have been NO better way than to have resurrected right there and then ON the cross. In a flash of glory right in front of the guards and all.

He could have floated off the cross, walked up to Pilate’s office and bitch slapped him for good measure. The Romans would have had to have been on board from then on and we wouldn’t have had to wait 300 years for Constantine to tidy everything up after all the bloody infighting. We would also have excellent historical proof that he was who his supporters say he was.

The best answer (BTW) to my question to date, was: Paper work. LOL

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Posted: 08 April 2007 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Very good point, cgallaga.

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Posted: 09 April 2007 02:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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[quote author=“Mriana”]As for your question, I’m not sure how to answer it.  What do you mean by destiny?  If there is no afterlife, then what is the destiny you ask about? It’s a rather confusing question.

To get a better idea of what Entity is talking about, you might want to see a thread he started in the General Discussion section called “Does the Universe have a Purpose?”  I was the one who suggested he use the word “destiny” instead of “purpose”, because purpose implies some kind of starting point from a guiding ntelligence, whereas destiny just implies and ending point.

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Posted: 09 April 2007 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Entity wrote:

It seems to me that when you individualize the self one becomes self indulgent with the choices made. “Who cares about humanity as long as my purpose is pursued,” one might say

One might say that, but I didn’t. I don’t think there is a necessary connection between denying that Humanity is an entity with agency/purpose/destiny as you suppose and hedonism as you suggest.

Humanity not the self has an opportunity to communicate its awareness of being where no other known creature can do the same.

I have no idea what you mean by this. How does the aggregate of all human beings (which is all that is meant by “humanity,” at least for me) “communicate its awareness of being?”

If humanity does not exist then the universe would be unknown and it follows that with the existence of humanity the universe “is” known to exist

As I said before, I think the idea that we exist as a manifestation of the Universe’s attempt to “know itself” is a religious idea, and I see no evidence for it. If we manage to understand some things about the universe, good for us. But it is not a conscious entity who cares (as far as I can tell), and this is not a purpose which justifies our existence. Why do you think we need a purpose to exist? And why just us? It seems that the true self-indulgence is thinking that human beings constitute some superentity like “Humanity” which exists as the expression of all the Universe’s drive for self-awareness. It is more likely, in my view, that we exist for all the same reasons squirrels and rocks and supernovas exist, and we’re lucky that we have the capacity to enjoy and reflect on our existence, but we that doesn’t make us all that important to anything but ourselves.

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