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Belief in the resurrection?
Posted: 10 April 2007 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]I have no idea what you mean by this. How does the aggregate of all human beings (which is all that is meant by “humanity,” at least for me) “communicate its awareness of being?”

Humanity can comprehend that it exists in a developing environment “and” communicate this awareness in multiple ways: DNA, human generated radio wave and microwave to name a few. Humanity can interrupt forms of communication and translate it into general terms. No other known living entity can do this. By doing so humanity can express its awareness of being in a multitude of forms thus allowing it to generate a diverse fashion of communication that will allow it to have a more than normal advantage when intercepting other like kinds communiqu╗.

[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]As I said before, I think the idea that we exist as a manifestation of the Universe’s attempt to “know itself” is a religious idea, and I see no evidence for it. If we manage to understand some things about the universe, good for us. But it is not a conscious entity who cares (as far as I can tell), and this is not a purpose which justifies our existence. Why do you think we need a purpose to exist? And why just us? It seems that the true self-indulgence is thinking that human beings constitute some superentity like “Humanity” which exists as the expression of all the Universe’s drive for self-awareness. It is more likely, in my view, that we exist for all the same reasons squirrels and rocks and supernovas exist, and we’re lucky that we have the capacity to enjoy and reflect on our existence, but we that doesn’t make us all that important to anything but ourselves.

There are many forms of living entities that exist however, there is only one that can communicate its awareness of being, as I have addressed previously. Humanity is not like any other creature and if it was not for humanity the whole of the universe would be unknown to exist. How hard is it to agree with this statement? It is not religion… it is fact. Humanity exists and the universe is known and without humanity the universe would be unknown. To assume the presence of other like beings may be as ridicules as believing in an omnipresent being. This is why I believe it is important to understand the uniqueness of humanity and appreciate its fundamental ability, which is its enduring awareness of being. Don’t you?

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Posted: 10 April 2007 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Humanity can comprehend that it exists in a developing environment “and” communicate this awareness in multiple ways: DNA, human generated radio wave and microwave to name a few

I think it is more than semantics to point out that human beings do these things. Humanity is just all the human beings there are, just a label for a group. You wouldn’t say “Pigeonity has the capacity for flight and communicates through cooing.” Pigeons do those things as individuals and in groups.
Now are human beings unique in self-awareness? This is trickier. I personally believe self-awareness is on a continuum and that many other species have more of it than we give credit for, but we are certainly unique on Earth in the extent of our self-reflection and the exuberance of our communication of this.

As for “communicating” by DNA< doesn’t every living thing do this?

if it was not for humanity the whole of the universe would be unknown to exist

Well, we don’t know that we are the only life form that knows itself to exist, though this is possible. I suspect there are others, though I see no definitive evidence for this suspicion. Whether other beings know the “universe” exists depends on what you mean. Lots of animals can be said to be aware of the existence of other things in that they respond behaviorally in ways that suggest this and that would be seen as evidence of awareness in a human, though these (w/ possible exceptions) cannot communicate what they are aware of through language. If you are thinking of some kind of global awareness of “the whole universe,” I doubt humanity can be said to have this. What we know is probably only a tiny fraction of what is, and much of it is probably wrong.

without humanity the universe would be unknown. To assume the presence of other like beings may be as ridicules as believing in an omnipresent being

Why? Because we haven’t met anybody like us cognitively yet? So? Proves nothing. You really want to make us vital to the meaning of the universe, but I’m not buying it.

This is why I believe it is important to understand the uniqueness of humanity and appreciate its fundamental ability, which is its enduring awareness of being. Don’t you?

I’m all for understanding and appreciating human beings, but I’m not sure what “enduring awareness of being” is. Anybody else have a thought here?

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Posted: 10 April 2007 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Posted: 11 April 2007 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]I think it is more than semantics to point out that human beings do these things. Humanity is just all the human beings there are, just a label for a group.

It is important to identify what the unique quality humans have that separates tem from other living beings and the awareness of being “and” the ability to communicate his awareness in a multifaceted way is what separates the all of humanity from the rest of the known living beings.
[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]You wouldn’t say “Pigeonity has the capacity for flight and communicates through cooing.” Pigeons do those things as individuals and in groups.

Sure, I would. The whole of “Pigeonity flies and coos’ but the cooing is only designed for the pigeons and if humans could understand what a coo means and we identify the coo and an expression of the understanding of being then the it would follow that they too have to propensity for awareness of being that is equal to humans. But as far as I am aware, the communiqu╗ as yet to have been uttered.
[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]Now are human beings unique in self-awareness? This is trickier. I personally believe self-awareness is on a continuum and that many other species have more of it than we give credit for, but we are certainly unique on Earth in the extent of our self-reflection and the exuberance of our communication of this.

Thanks
[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]As for “communicating” by DNA< doesn’t every living thing do this?

Sure but we are on there verge of understanding what the DNA of different beings mean. I am unaware of any other living beings doing research on DNA. For example, if we found DNA on Mars we would e able to trace its development back to its conception and compare it to others on earth. The DNA sample from Mars would communicate its history of development but could not tell us its level of understanding of being.
[quote author=“mckenzievmd”] Well, we don’t know that we are the only life form that knows itself to exist, though this is possible. I suspect there are others, though I see no definitive evidence for this suspicion. Whether other beings know the “universe” exists depends on what you mean. “.If you are thinking of some kind of global awareness of “the whole universe,” I doubt humanity can be said to have this. What we know is probably only a tiny fraction of what is, and much of it is probably wrong.

I am addressing only humanity’s awareness of being and the awareness of our being in an environment we call the universe. We do not have to know all of the qualities of the universe to be aware of it existing. I am sure that if there are other knowing beings that exist in other locations we will have the tools to communicate our understanding of being. If by chance, a visitor landed on earth before the development of humanity they would find a planet full of living being without the ability to communicate its awareness of being and would have to rely on DNA historic development to catalogue the development our plant. Today, this visitor would find a much more diverse group of living beings that would have a more insightful understanding of being, don’t you think? At lest I think so.
[quote author=“Entity”]without humanity the universe would be unknown. To assume the presence of other like beings may be as ridicules as believing in an omnipresent being

[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]Why? Because we haven’t met anybody like us cognitively yet? So? Proves nothing. You really want to make us vital to the meaning of the universe, but I’m not buying it.

ok [quote author=“Entity”]This is why I believe it is important to understand the uniqueness of humanity and appreciate its fundamental ability, which is its enduring awareness of being. Don’t you?

[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]I’m all for understanding and appreciating human beings, but I’m not sure what “enduring awareness of being” is. Anybody else have a thought here?

Humanity’s continuous unique ability to perceive itself as existing in an environment.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 01:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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[quote author=“mckenzievmd”]Anybody else have a thought here?

[quote author=“George Benedik”]I think everybody has exhausted all the thoughts related to this topic in the “Purpose of the Universe” thread.

Why do you think just because you have a limited understanding of purpose everyone else should as well. I have much more confidence in Humanity then you seem to find. It is pointless to attack the thread if you don’t have anything productive to offer. I am addressing the possibility the humanity is wasting its time believing in false realities when it may be that our only useful contribution to our future generations is our enduring awareness of being and our ability to communicate this awareness. Without humanity, visitors to earth will find a dead planet with DNA holders as the only form of communication.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 02:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Well, Entity, if you are trying to raise “awareness” of the importance of humanity, I’m not sure who you are trying to convince. ALL of us believe that humans are very important. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say that almost all people on earth believe that humans are important.

It’s the more tendentious stuff that is the problem (“enduring awareness of being”? What the heck is that?), and it’s what makes me agree with George. We’ve exhausted this in the prior thread, and this one is looking like attempt #2 on the same subject.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 03:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Hello Doug
[quote author=“dougsmith”]Well, Entity, if you are trying to raise “awareness” of the importance of humanity, I’m not sure who you are trying to convince. ALL of us believe that humans are very important. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say that almost all people on earth believe that humans are important.

I do not agree with you. I believe that many humans believe that some humans who do not follow certain religious or secular dogmas are expendable. It is this belief in false ideas of humans’ purpose that I address. I believe that if there is a need to apply a purpose for humanity’s existence that it should only go so far as to say that its awareness of being is what sets it apart from other living beings. When one tries to place some sort of mythological outdated rational for purpose which is based on false assumptions against the belief of an alternative truth, always places the “none believer” in the category of expendable.  If there is a purpose for humanity, which I believe there is of course, then it must only apply to humanity as a collective group not as some sort of choice driven ideology that can never be proven and can only be applied on a faith base judgment call by the individual.

[quote author=“dougsmith”]It’s the more tendentious stuff that is the problem (“enduring awareness of being”? What the heck is that?), and it’s what makes me agree with George. We’ve exhausted this in the prior thread, and this one is looking like attempt #2 on the same subject.

I want to apply this thread to religion not just purpose alone. Religion creates a sense of powerlessness to the follower that I believe is unnecessary. Any religion that is faith based lures the follower with delusions of grandeur and the illusion must depend on faith. The enduring, continuing, and lasting ability for humanity as a collective to be aware of its being and to communicate this in a multitude of forms is threaten by ideologies that promote Armageddon, don’t you think? Doug, if you feel this is not worth discussing I will stop”.just for you.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 03:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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[quote author=“Entity”]I believe that many humans believe that some humans who do not follow certain religious or secular dogmas are expendable. It is this belief in false ideas of humans’ purpose that I address.

Sure. Then we’re getting somewhere, although in this audience you will find few who disagree.

[quote author=“Entity”]I believe that if there is a need to apply a purpose for humanity’s existence that it should only go so far as to say that its awareness of being is what sets it apart from other living beings.

That’s a very strange construction: “if there is a need to apply a purpose”. Surely either there IS a purpose for humanity, or there IS NOT such a purpose. And if the latter, then it doesn’t matter if we “need” such a purpose, none exists.

[quote author=“Entity”]The enduring, continuing, and lasting ability for humanity as a collective to be aware of its being and to communicate this in a multitude of forms is threaten by ideologies that promote Armageddon, don’t you think?

Well, humanity’s very existence is threatened by end-of-time ideologies that promote Armageddon. That is clear. But that has nothing to do with “being aware of our being”, it has to do with simply not getting into a nuclear or biolgical war.

“Being aware of our being” sounds to me like useless navel-gazing. Even meditation has some advantages in mental calming and focus. I can’t see any use whatever to “being aware of being”.

[quote author=“Entity”]Doug, if you feel this is not worth discussing I will stop”.just for you.

Thanks, but don’t do it for me. I’d say let’s work to keep this thread on a slightly different topic from the last one. If you want to go on arguing the same stuff as before, better just to do so in the old thread and see if it has any takers.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 04:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”] “Being aware of our being” sounds to me like useless navel-gazing. Even meditation has some advantages in mental calming and focus. I can’t see any use whatever to “being aware of being”.

OK, the advantage: It seems apparent that most of humanity needs to apply their lives to some sort of purpose as evident by the mass numbers in each religious movement. Humanity’s awareness of being and its ability to communicate this awareness is common to all and this is what makes us human. No other creature on “Earth” can do the same. This usefulness is applied to the universe by making the universe known to exist. This is useful because if the universe is not known to exist how would it be known to exist and as a result may not exist. I know you find this useless but that is because you take it for granted because you exist and thus so does the universe. However, if humanity did not exist as it did not, over a million years ago it would also mean that the universe was not known to exist. It is humanity that brings the universe into the realm of the known. I promise not to repeat this again. But it must be understood that this is my argument for the awareness of being.

[quote author=“dougsmith”]  Thanks, but don’t do it for me. I’d say let’s work to keep this thread on a slightly different topic from the last one. If you want to go on arguing the same stuff as before, better just to do so in the old thread and see if it has any takers.

Ok to make this thread different let’s just say that if the majority of humanity is going to apply a purpose to being then we must establish one that does not alienate and is applicable to humanity as a whole not just to the faithful.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Posted: 11 April 2007 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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[quote author=“George Benedik”]FWIW, I am satisfied with the thought that there isn’t any purpose to being. Hence, I don’t ever see myself trying to establish some kind of a sole “meaning of life” that would be applicable to all. Human kind will most likely go extinct and there is a good chance that the whole universe will one day cease to exist. No Purpose of any kind will change this.

I am happy for your contentment but disappointed in your conclusion. Your viewpoint makes the universe in general such a waste of space. I hope you are wrong.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Your viewpoint makes the universe in general such a waste of space.

Why? Why is a purpose beyond those we find for ourselves necessary? It isn’t for a sense of meaning or fulfillment, since I for one have those without believing there is a larger purpose.

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Posted: 11 April 2007 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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[quote author=“mckenzievmd”][quote author=“Entity”]Your viewpoint makes the universe in general such a waste of space.

Why? Why is a purpose beyond those we find for ourselves necessary? It isn’t for a sense of meaning or fulfillment, since I for one have those without believing there is a larger purpose.

It is selfish to assume that ones own idea of being does not affect others. Ones complacency counters the arrogance of those who wish to gain from the ignorance of the many. When I see the damage done by those who control the mass religious environment and they act as though they would rather perpetuate their false truth then save their followers lives, I for “one” believe I must step up to the plate and at lest offer an alternative. That is also, what makes us humans” compassion for those who cannot do for themselves. Don’t you think?

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Posted: 11 April 2007 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Posted: 11 April 2007 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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It is selfish to assume that ones own idea of being does not affect others. Ones complacency counters the arrogance of those who wish to gain from the ignorance of the many. When I see the damage done by those who control the mass religious environment and they act as though they would rather perpetuate their false truth then save their followers lives, I for “one” believe I must step up to the plate and at lest offer an alternative. That is also, what makes us humans” compassion for those who cannot do for themselves. Don’t you think?

You still haven’t answered the question. Why is a grand purpose or meaning necessary? You can’t be suggesting that without one acts of compassion aren’t possible, can you? And if you are suggesting that denying the idea of a grand purpose is complicity with religion, you are mistaken. In fact, denying the very need for a myth that places human beings qualitatively out of and above the ordinary existence of everythng else, is exactly the sort of alternative to religion you claim to want to offer. You seem to be offering a replacement mythology that give humans some extraordinary significance that I don’t think we have or need and juts leaves out the God part. Offering an alternative that is the same kind of false hope for importance beyond reality that religion offers is not compassion.

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