2 of 6
2
nationalism
Posted: 29 August 2007 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  252
Joined  2007-07-12

== deleted by me ==

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2007 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  252
Joined  2007-07-12

I am Israeli, jewish.

I try not to pay attention to the nation I belong in, as a conscious choice. It seems a way to deride human life of value, when you pay more attention to some fictitous group you are supposed to be a part of than to the person you are.

As to being jewish specifically, I am quite ashamed of it actually. For 3000 our “nation” was strongly merged with religion. This is not something to take pride in.


I wonder though, if there is some rational way to refute nationalism? Otherwise, explaining the psychology of it, seems like an “ad hominem” attack to me.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2007 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

Wandering, I don’t see that you have anything to be ashamed of.  Rather than looking back on the errors, stupidity, and often viciousness of the forebears of all of us, we should focus on working to avoid ever making the same mistakes and make whatever restitution we can.  We cannot be blamed for whatever they did before we were even born.  I can blame the Nazis of the Second World War, but I cannot blame, say, a twenty year old German (unless s/he adopts the same views the Nazis held) for what his/her ancestors did. 

Just about everyone in every culture believed in the religious insanity throughout the centuries.  We are just beginning to withdraw from it, but it will probably take a number of additional generations to completely cleanse ourselves of this. 

Nationalism has a slightly more rational basis for existing - protection from other groups.  I think it will be a longer time before we can discard national boundaries.

I’m not sure what you refer to when you mention an ad hominem attack.

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2007 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4052
Joined  2006-11-28

I think the concentric circles of “us vs them” is an innate part of the human psyche. Me, family, clan, village, race/religion, nation, etc. I doubt we’ll ever get rid of it, but we seem to be getting better (though w/ plenty of steps backwards as well) at minimizing its destructiveness.

 Signature 

The SkeptVet
The SkeptVet Blog
Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 August 2007 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  252
Joined  2007-07-12
Occam - 29 August 2007 08:06 PM

Wandering, I don’t see that you have anything to be ashamed of.  Rather than looking back on the errors, stupidity, and often viciousness of the forebears of all of us, we should focus on working to avoid ever making the same mistakes and make whatever restitution we can.  We cannot be blamed for whatever they did before we were even born.  I can blame the Nazis of the Second World War, but I cannot blame, say, a twenty year old German (unless s/he adopts the same views the Nazis held) for what his/her ancestors did. 

If one pays importance to the idea of the nation, then one should not only pride in the national achievements nowdays and in the past, but also feel ashamed for the failings. No other nation made the tie with the religion its official ideology.

However, I agree that if one disregards the idea of nationalism, there is no reason to be ashamed either.

Just about everyone in every culture believed in the religious insanity throughout the centuries.  We are just beginning to withdraw from it, but it will probably take a number of additional generations to completely cleanse ourselves of this. 

Nationalism has a slightly more rational basis for existing - protection from other groups.  I think it will be a longer time before we can discard national boundaries.

I’m not sure what you refer to when you mention an ad hominem attack.

Occam

I have a bad feeling about nationalism and patriotism. It means taking pride and shame in attitudes that you are not responsible for. But in general, when I disagree with an idea, I am seeking a more rational analysis of the illogic of it, than a psychologic analysis, as the above.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 August 2007 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  459
Joined  2007-06-19
wandering - 30 August 2007 08:45 AM

I have a bad feeling about nationalism and patriotism. It means taking pride and shame in attitudes that you are not responsible for. But in general, when I disagree with an idea, I am seeking a more rational analysis of the illogic of it, than a psychologic analysis, as the above.

Well, I think the best rational argument against nationalism is that there is no rational argument to support it, and that ussually leads to accept acritically dangerous ideas. I’d ask for rational arguments to support nationalism rather than looking for rational arguments to debunk it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 August 2007 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  195
Joined  2007-07-24

I tend to view political ideas as, well, political… in which case people who rant about how bad patriotism is are universally relegated to the fringe, while people who just agitate for concrete ideas they view as good often succeed. If you want to end a war, argue against that war. If you want to end an occupation, argue against that occupation.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 August 2007 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  403
Joined  2007-08-26
Barto - 30 August 2007 09:38 AM
wandering - 30 August 2007 08:45 AM

I have a bad feeling about nationalism and patriotism. It means taking pride and shame in attitudes that you are not responsible for. But in general, when I disagree with an idea, I am seeking a more rational analysis of the illogic of it, than a psychologic analysis, as the above.

Well, I think the best rational argument against nationalism is that there is no rational argument to support it, and that ussually leads to accept acritically dangerous ideas. I’d ask for rational arguments to support nationalism rather than looking for rational arguments to debunk it.

Good point. For those of us who are born into a particular country (as opposed to those who make a rational decision to emigrate to that country), we are really what Heidegger would call “thrown” into our situation. We don’t choose our nationality, we’re thrown into it by a random roll of the ontological dice, and the idea that we should have a sense of national pride (or national shame) for past acts that we had no part in doesn’t make much sense. It makes no more sense than having a sense of Hoo-Rah jingoistic pride over being a member of “the people with blue eyes” or “the people with naturally-curly hair”. It’s nothing we chose, we’re thrown into it. With a different random roll of the ontological dice, we could’ve been thrown into the nation across the river that “we” hate and are always warring with.

 Signature 

—————————————————
http://www.StephenJGallagher.com
http://StephenJGallagher.blogspot.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 August 2007 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9284
Joined  2006-08-29

Perhaps we don’t take much pride in our nationality because it’s becoming a little unclear who is who. If aliens attacked earth tomorrow I am sure it would be very easy to find pride in being humans.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 September 2007 11:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4052
Joined  2006-11-28

Wallowing in my latest acquisiton, a good copy of Bartlett’s quotations, I ran across this:

“If I knew something that would serve my nation but would ruin another, I would not propose it to my prince, for I am first a man and only then a Frenchman…because I am necessarily a man, and only accidentally am I French”
Montesquieu

 Signature 

The SkeptVet
The SkeptVet Blog
Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2007 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2291
Joined  2007-07-05

NO

 Signature 

Fiziks is Fundamental

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2007 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4052
Joined  2006-11-28

Hmm, brief, but perhaps not your most articulate or cogent response, psikeyhackr. Care to elaborate?

 Signature 

The SkeptVet
The SkeptVet Blog
Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2007 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

Hmmm, based on that, my response would be:

YES

LOL

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 September 2007 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  403
Joined  2007-08-26
Occam - 02 September 2007 08:56 PM

Hmmm, based on that, my response would be:

YES

LOL

Occam

Or perhaps, for those “Vicar of Dibley” fans out there:

  NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ..... YES!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/vicarofdibley/

 Signature 

—————————————————
http://www.StephenJGallagher.com
http://StephenJGallagher.blogspot.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 September 2007 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  672
Joined  2007-06-17

I doubt there are many outside of the West country, Steve.

 Signature 

http://web.mac.com/normsherman/iWeb/Site/Podcast/833F918B-485B-42F4-B18C-4AB1436D9B87.html

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 6
2
 
‹‹ Before I die...      "Virgin Birth" ››