2 of 3
2
Personal advice
Posted: 02 August 2007 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20
cgallaga - 31 July 2007 11:35 AM
someone1 - 31 July 2007 09:06 AM

It seems that taking the drug makes me “less me”. I am a person, an individual, with a character. Taking a drug that effects my brain makes me feel that I am not one hundred percent myself, that I am affected by merely a drug.

It is a chemical compound. Eat any fruit? Or Bread/pasta/rice? Or any vegetables or meat? Ever drink a caffeinated beverage? An alcoholic beverage, or just plain ole water?

Every one of those is also just a chemical compound. You don’t want to stop ingesting those do you? But if you stop eating and drinking it will also change your mood and behavior, so eating and drinking normal food and water changes your chemistry and to some extent your behavior.

My own experience with anti anxiety and anti depressants were pretty tame. In both cases the mood enhancement was slow and subtle. Certainly I had no loss of anything I had before. The anxiety meds made me feel generally but slightly more satisfied with things, the antidepressants actually made me feel more ... nervous. But that could be because I wasn’t (apparently) depressed, but have some sort of uncertain stomach thing. The attempt was to treat what was guessed to be a stress related illness, not specifically depression.

Anyway, don’t worry, be happy. The you that you are, both chemically and emotionally is always changing anyway, so just as proper diet or exercise can improve your makeup so can food, drink and even medicine.


If there were a pill, taking which would cause you to have a great sense of humor (which you did not have previously), would you still say the above?  If there were a pill taking which woud make you attracted to blondes only, you are sure you would not feel a feeling “that is not the usual me” ? Are you sure it wouldn’t scare you?

Short-terms pills that cause relaxation has a similar effect on me - I am calmer.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 August 2007 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  508
Joined  2006-04-18
someone1 - 02 August 2007 09:03 AM

If there were a pill, taking which would cause you to have a great sense of humor (which you did not have previously), would you still say the above?  If there were a pill taking which woud make you attracted to blondes only, you are sure you would not feel a feeling “that is not the usual me” ? Are you sure it wouldn’t scare you?

Short-terms pills that cause relaxation has a similar effect on me - I am calmer.

Hey cmon, I may not have the best sense of humor, but its not so bad as to require treatment.

And I am very attracted to blonds, blond Chinese guys are HOT!

The rest is non sequitur, and red herring, same as saying:  “if you might get hit by a bus would you still go outside?...of no point.

A proper question would be: if you have a headache would you take a tylenol? Yes.

If you had a broken leg would you follow doctors orders? Yes.

Like that.

By the way I am honest enough with myself to recognize that there is no such thing as “the usual me.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20
cgallaga - 02 August 2007 10:12 AM

[[[[[[[If there were a pill, taking which would cause you to have a great sense of humor (which you did not have previously), would you still say the above?  If there were a pill taking which woud make you attracted to blondes only, you are sure you would not feel a feeling “that is not the usual me” ? Are you sure it wouldn’t scare you?  ]]]]]]]]]]

Short-terms pills that cause relaxation has a similar effect on me - I am calmer.

Hey cmon, I may not have the best sense of humor, but its not so bad as to require treatment.

And I am very attracted to blonds, blond Chinese guys are HOT!

The rest is non sequitur, and red herring, same as saying:  “if you might get hit by a bus would you still go outside?...of no point.

A proper question would be: if you have a headache would you take a tylenol? Yes.

If you had a broken leg would you follow doctors orders? Yes.

Like that.

By the way I am honest enough with myself to recognize that there is no such thing as “the usual me.”


What’s the point if you do have a humour, and are attracted to chinese guys? I was trying to convey that taking short term pills (for example benzodiazepine drugs) changes my feelings a lot. Sometimes I even wonder if it is “the same me” or not.

I ask you to imagine that a drug would have a very strong effect upon your personality (you chose which exactly), and imagine how would it make you feel. Wouldn’t that be scary? How would you react to that?

[ Edited: 05 August 2007 12:56 PM by someone1 ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20
dougsmith - 22 July 2007 10:12 AM

Lots of good advice and info for you here, someone1. Re. the question as to how you can know if the particular drug is the cause of your improvement, this is basically an impossibility, as Occam suggests. The only way you can know for sure about the causal efficacy of a drug is in a distributed, random, double-blind trial, up against a placebo. You will know if the drug has an effect if there is statistically significant improvement of those taking the drug as versus those taking the placebo.

The problem with single cases (e.g., your case, or my case) is that there is too much noise; there are too many additional factors in any given case to be sure of what’s doing the causal work. Causation is something you determine in aggregate, in a large trial. It can’t be determined in a single case, since the effects are subtle and can be masked by other phenomena.

That said, every drug allowed for use by the FDA has been shown more effective than a placebo in just such a large trial. So we know they are at least somewhat effective in some people. However, this additional effect over placebo may be rather small, and may be different in people with different genetic makeups. So, for example, such a drug may be very effective in certain people, and totally ineffective in others. The same is true with side effects.

All you can do is start a trial run with a drug your doctor feels is a good first candidate, and in close consultation, determine if you like what’s going on or not. This isn’t a perfect solution, but unfortunately there are no perfect solutions yet.

Do you think it is a solution? There still will not be neither for me neither for the doctor to know whether the drug has effect.

I realize that it seems there isn’t a way to know if an SSRI has effect upon you personally or not. So why most people take them? Perhaps they are unaware how hard it is to make a link between taking a drug and improvement, in an individual case?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15368
Joined  2006-02-14

Presumably people continue taking them because they feel better. It’s not a perfect indication (could be partly or entirely due to a placebo effect) but given that the drug has been demonstrated effective, there is nothing more one can do.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4080
Joined  2006-11-28

The question seems to boil down to
1)Can we know for certain exactly what effect a given drug will have and
2)Will that effect fundamentally change “who I am”?
I would suggest that there is a great deal we don’t know about how these drugs work (though there is a lot we do know). That means there is an amount of unavoidable uncertainty in deciding to take them If the symptoms for which they are prescribed are bad enough given the uncertainty, then taking them is appropriate. Much as we would like it to be so, medicine can’t always make ironclad objective decisions about sauch things, and that’s just reality. As for the issue of who we really are and will this change with these drugs, I think the general experience of the majority of people taking them has been that they do not feel like “someone else,” just like themselves with less or none of the troubling feelings that led them to seek care. But the idea that there is a concrete, immutable, locatable self in each of us is, I think, an illusion anyway. Some things change us dramatically in the short term and temporarily (Scotch being one of my favorites), others change us more subtely over longer time scales and, possibly, permanantly (behavior modification, nutrition, meditation, long-term use of both licit and ilicit drugs). Finding the balance that makes us happiest is an art, not a science, and the responsibility is ultimately our own, though I do believe medicine can truly help.

 Signature 

The SkeptVet
The SkeptVet Blog
Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20
mckenzievmd - 05 August 2007 01:33 PM

Finding the balance that makes us happiest is an art, not a science,  .

I agree that it boils down to the two questions you have written. With regards to the first: damn, hard to accept!

I am qurious - why do you choose to call finding the balance an art and not a science?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4080
Joined  2006-11-28

Well, I’m not convinced that “happiness” is an objective entity that can be measured and manipulated in strict scientific ways. I think it is a way of feeling about one’s life, inherently subjective, and currently it is beyond our scientific skills to reliably produce it. I think science can help. We can recognize and, to some degree, treat depressive tendencies that interfere with happiness. And we can prevent other sources of suffering, such as illness or pain, that interfere with it. We can external factors, such as poverty and other living condition variables with scientific tools. But I just don’t think we can, and I doubt we ever will, be able to deliberately and reliably produce happiness solely by neruochemical manipulations. At least with our current limited understanding of the relationship between brain and mental states, I don’t think the key to being happy lies entirely in science’s grasp. So as individuals I think we have to make evaluations and choices about our own happiness to the extent we can. Change what we think needs changing, accept what we think is not changeable, and do the best we can with what and where we are. Even as a commited scientist, I would not claim science has, can have, or should have all the answers to living a happy and meaningful life. That’s why it is an art more than a science.

 Signature 

The SkeptVet
The SkeptVet Blog
Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 August 2007 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  508
Joined  2006-04-18

The rest is non sequitur, and red herring, same as saying:  “if you might get hit by a bus would you still go outside?...of no point.

A proper question would be: if you have a headache would you take a tylenol? Yes.

If you had a broken leg would you follow doctors orders? Yes.

Like that.

By the way I am honest enough with myself to recognize that there is no such thing as “the usual me.”

What’s the point if you do have a humour, and are attracted to chinese guys? I was trying to convey that taking short term pills (for example benzodiazepine drugs) changes my feelings a lot. Sometimes I even wonder if it is “the same me” or not.

I ask you to imagine that a drug would have a very strong effect upon your personality (you chose which exactly), and imagine how would it make you feel. Wouldn’t that be scary? How would you react to that?

And I told you the only things worthy of much discussion were those two things. The rest of your post continues to deserve a “so what” response. So what if an asteroid may hit us tomorrow. I could spend all day worrying about what ifs, but if I have a headache I take a Tylenol. The whole point of benzodiazepine is to change your feelings. Would you forgo anesthesia in a heart operation? Anastesia would change “you” almost completely.

But the real problem with your question (and predicament IMHO) is this concept of a static you. Please show me empirically that there is a static you. One has to assume that you are considering these medicines because you are having changes of mood all by yourself that are also not what you want to think of as the static you. Please, where is it? Define it. Codify it. You can’t, cause it don’t exist. So you are worrying about the impending doom of something that is not a real thing. Your quandary with taking this medicine is most analogous to when wants to develop a new skill; we can study and become proficient or we can wait for randomly events to give us the skill. Though in a world of infinite possibility, it is possible the latter will happen, it is highly improbable.

And to answer another part of your question again. I have taken all of those, when doctors suggested it was the best path. But then I have known for some time that the me typing this email is not the same me that just got out of bed an hour ago. We are not static states we are processes.

Oh and it was specifically Blond Chinese Guys.

[ Edited: 05 August 2007 07:44 PM by cgallaga ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 August 2007 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20
cgallaga - 05 August 2007 07:41 PM

But the real problem with your question (and predicament IMHO) is this concept of a static you. Please show me empirically that there is a static you. One has to assume that you are considering these medicines because you are having changes of mood all by yourself that are also not what you want to think of as the static you. Please, where is it? Define it. Codify it. You can’t, cause it don’t exist. So you are worrying about the impending doom of something that is not a real thing. Your quandary with taking this medicine is most analogous to when wants to develop a new skill; we can study and become proficient or we can wait for randomly events to give us the skill. Though in a world of infinite possibility, it is possible the latter will happen, it is highly improbable.

And to answer another part of your question again. I have taken all of those, when doctors suggested it was the best path. But then I have known for some time that the me typing this email is not the same me that just got out of bed an hour ago. We are not static states we are processes.

Oh and it was specifically Blond Chinese Guys.

(1)Are you buddhist?

(2)You can’t imagine any situation in which you would feel that because of taking a drug you “would not be you”, and hence would be scared to take the drug?No matter how profound the changes in your personality?Can anyone else imagine such a situation?

(Thanks for the help)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 August 2007 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  508
Joined  2006-04-18

1. NO

2. Yes…I can imagine all sorts of things that are not real. Long ago I even played D&D, with vivacity and abandon. But hence, No.  I am me no matter what brain state I have, and oddly the me that I am is not a thing that can be locked down anyway, that is not exclusively buddhist, its just a fact. I am 42. I am not in any way shape or form the same as I was when I was 41. Not mentally or physically. So again your question is a red herring you are using to…well scare yourself it seems. That too can be fun, enjoy.

Sure anytime, we are all just getting by.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 August 2007 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20

Perhaps you can help me with a more personal issue?

Taking benzodiazepines effects my mood very strongly, I become much calmer. So, taking an SSRI, in case that it changes the way I behave is quite scary.

Morever, benzodiazepines effect the way I relate to people. So I imagine a situation in which I would meet a girl, that would like me only if I am on an SSRI medicine.

Can you contribute some point of view to it?


cgallaga : ” I am is not a thing that can be locked down anyway”  . What do you think is “I” ? Can you define ” I ” ?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 August 2007 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  89
Joined  2006-09-08

Someone1, what country is your place of residence?

When was the last time you saw a Physician or Psychiatrist?

The best advice is to find a Healthcare professional that you trust, in some places it may even be a Nurse or Psychologist.

You have received very good advice here, follow it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2007 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  12
Joined  2007-07-20

If you are dating someone, at what point would you say you are on drugs?

There is some obligation for the person being dated, to know to know WHO are they dating, and me on drugs is a different me, than the me without on drugs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2007 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  89
Joined  2006-09-08

deleted by user

[ Edited: 21 September 2007 12:08 AM by OhioDoc ]
Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2
 
‹‹ How Much of a Risk Would it Be...      A Rant ››