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The meaning of “God”
Posted: 10 August 2007 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Doug, God is:

1. All loving and oh, by the way, he has eternal torment waiting for us if we don’t believe in him.
2. All knowing, but when he wiped out everyone but Noah and his family to purify the human race it didn’t work.
3. The savior of all humanity on condition of belief, but he didn’t bother to tell most of the world about the savior they were supposed to believe in for many centuries after he supposedly came to save them.
4. Superior to Satan, whom he consigned to hell, but apparently left the cage door open long enough for Satan to make his way into Eden to tempt Adam and Eve.
5. The loving father of us all, but the Jews are the chosen people and only the Christians are saved.

As we all know, this list could go on and on for quite some length.

Understanding that, why are you concerned about obscuring “God?”

I understand your point, but I don’t agree with it. My point is that God is a concept, probably thousands of vastly different concepts if we add them up all over the world. It’s not a matter of putting forth my own idea, or any individual’s idea of “what God is.” I don’t have any single idea of “what God is.” God is whatever concept people have when they conceive of God. Some of those ideas have strengths, others have grievous weaknesses. I want to take people away from traditional concepts of God to get them to think about all the other things it might mean, because if I can do that, I’ve gotten them to think a litttle differently than they were conditioned to think. Even a little of that is a good thing; if someone is completely stuck with a single, rigid conception of God, there’s pretty much nowhere to go but up. It’s like prying loose one pot that’s stuck into another: sometimes you have to wiggle it back and forth quite a bit before it comes loose. If I’m getting people to question their assumptions about “what God is,” I suppose we could call that obscuring things, but that’s not how I choose to look at it.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 12:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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PlaClair, I agree with you when you say God is a concept.  And whether all the reason of your God is analogous is represented by believers of it, or those who oppose it, that which is believed and not believed are beliefs both ways of that which as you stated a concept. 

When one say a definition of God, regardless of the definition is obscure, I found it is usually those who refuse to go beyond the average thinking of the collective indoctrinated mass.  There is no definition for God.  But believers and non-believers need fillers so they can believe they themselves have definition.

So I present my filler of definition to obscure the definition of God even the more.

“God is a myth.  But God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcend all categories of human thought, even the category of being and non-being”  - Joseph Campbell

Allow me to give you my definition of God by presentation of the Circle.

Religion, science and philosophy are the primers for mankind’s awareness, but that is all they are. Nonetheless, mankind thinks and believes they are the basis for their living, achievements, sucess whether good or bad, and on and on and on. But as all situations, circumstances, conditions and even the enviorn, come and go fluently in all individuals lives unnoticed because the attitude of memory keeps one locked into that which was. Repetition of all we do is repetitive of all that is.

The Circle [form] is absolute only because the definition of the circle [unknown metaphor] is recognized only by individual concepts and beliefs.  It is those definition which makes the the void -that which is in the middle and on the outside of the definition - appear to be more than the equal of the definition. But it is the definition - the metaphor -  which makes the circle visible because therein lies the form - the myth.  Had there been no myth, there would be no metaphor, and all would be void. So the reality of the circle is the definition because it is the only form there is. And thus that reality is comprehended when it is realized the voids which surround the outer and inner perimeters of the definition are not divided because they are linked by definition.

All are one metaphor because it is the metaphor of the form which gives the void within and without their definition of dimensions. Take away the definition of the circle and there is nothingness. But how can the circle be removed without removing the void, for it is the circle which gives the void form and makes all relative to the definition.

It is the attempt to remove - separate - the existence of the form of definition which cause the chaotic quantum world of dualiam. For religion, science, and philosophy to say that which is the definitive perimeter of the circle, and that within and without the definitive circle has no meaning, when the reality is all can only relate to the circle because of the form they bear as the void.

The circle is the metaphior which makes all things metaphors for the circle is a continuum of one definition.  The One definition is a continuum of itself. This is the truest…....and only state of awareness man can touch as a human. .

Constantly in this day and age the new word is outside the box.  But let someone step outside the box and all hell breaks loose.  Why? because no one want that which is obscure to normal intellectual dogma challenged.  It is the same in science, there is a common law “Thou shalt not challenge Einstein,” for if you do without going all around conformity to submit a challenge to Einstein, one will be ostracized in the scientific community.

Aint that something?

[ Edited: 11 August 2007 08:28 AM by jufa ]
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Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength jufa

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Posted: 11 August 2007 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Retrospy asked

Jufa,

Do you believe in intercessory prayer?

This question was asked of me without first defining whether Retrospy knew what intercessory prayer was.  Whether it was a question based on the definition of what a preacher, priest, gugu, or iman has said it was.  Or whether it was something read from a book or a I think concept.  If either of the above is what prompted the question, then the question has no validity, and an answer would be meaningless.

But should it be Retrospy’s is asking this question from experience of acquired knowledge of intercessory prayer, then a definition of that experience should be laid out.  So before the question can be given a legitimate answer, there must be a legitimate question based on actual experience of what intecessory prayer is to Retrospy.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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jufa, it is indeed something. I’m constantly amazed how much resistance there is to challenging assumptions even among iconoclasts.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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jufa,
Talk about weaseling out of an honest discussion! So now we have to prove to you the depth of our personal experiences before you accept a question as legitimate? If everything is personal, how could you possobly know whether we have the expereince necessary to make the question meaningful whatever we say? You have quite a racket going, setting yourself up as a sage by speaking vague, mostly meaningless gibberish with a mystical sound to it, by deciding whose understanding is deep enough to speak with (thus eliminating hving to answer anyone who questions the truth of what you say), and by insisting that any discussion is meaningless unless it begins by accepting as true the outlook you propose. Mysticism and religious thinking at its best (which, sadly isn’t very good).

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Posted: 11 August 2007 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Say what you will, but if I have weaseled out of answering an honest question, then give me an honest definition of what intercessory prayer is?  In other words Mckenzievmd, I ask to be told what is the meaning of an intercessory prayer according to what one knows from experience, not from what some one has said it is.  If asking for a definitive personal assessment before answering a question is weaseling out, according to your authoritatiive interpretation, then so be it.  But I see there was no response to from Retrospy to my question of clarification.  And I see there was no response from you, being you took up the banner which Retrospy was carrying to clarify what intercessory prayer is.  I see this make the both of us weasels don’t it

What I did see from you however, is your lack of understanding of the rudiments of an individual life.  Everything is personal to an individual.  Every thought they have.  Every step they take.  Every time they sit on the toilet and let the garbage out, or open their mouth in speech represent a personal experience.  You are on a personal crusade here in your correspondence with me.  You have taken up a cause:

So now we have to prove to you the depth of our personal experiences before you accept a question as legitimate?

and began a campaign of slogans:

You have quite a racket going, setting yourself up as a sage by speaking vague, mostly meaningless gibberish with a mystical sound to it, by deciding whose understanding is deep enough to speak with (thus eliminating hving to answer anyone who questions the truth of what you say),

and a button of commitment

by insisting that any discussion is meaningless unless it begins by accepting as true the outlook you propose. Mysticism and religious thinking at its best (which, sadly isn’t very good).

to make others believe in your personal vendetta because you cannot understand. 

I have no problem with this.  If I did, or if I allow it to become a problem, then that means you have the power to knock me off my mark as I have knocked you off your mark with simple words.  So go on and rant and rave.  Respond to me or not, it doesn’t matter to me.  I’ve come here to say what I have to say, and a person can either accept it or reject it.  I think attitudes and I think ego’s do not make the sun to rise nor set.  Life is as that “Ol Man River it just keeps rolling along.” 

“Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead.”

Now do you want to tell me what intercessory prayer is?

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Posted: 11 August 2007 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Intercessory prayer.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Jufa,
No crusade or cause, since I consider you a lost cause. But for the benefit of those still interested in reason, I offer an alternative perspective.

I have no understanding of the rudiments of an individual life? How so? I have one, and I understand it as well as you understand your (I would say better). Certainly by your credo of individual experience as the only truth, you couldn’t possibly tell me anything useful about my own life.

As for definingintercessory prayer, likely doing so for you is pointless since you don’t believe words can communicate meaning (in which case how you can criticise my lack of understanding is also a mystery). FWIW, I believe it means calling upon a supernatural being to change some aspect of the material world. Doubtless you will now tell me the terms of the question are meaningless. How convenient. grin

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Posted: 11 August 2007 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Mckenzievmd, did not ask you to tell me what you believed it means—praying to a supernatural God, now there one for you to change some aspect of the material world.  Will this supernatural God hear and carry out the prayers of the Muslims, and the Americans to destroy each other, granting both prayers simultaneously?— I ask you to tell me what you knew intercessory prayer to mean from your experience.  If you can’t tell me in that manner, then you don’t know and you have jump on a bandwagon you are ignorant of.

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Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength jufa

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Posted: 11 August 2007 10:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Jufa,
How surprising! Instead of answering the question after 2 different people provided the additional information you asked for, you just turn the question back on them. Hopeless.

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Posted: 12 August 2007 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Well let us look at what was supplied and see what additional information was provided.

1), Retrospy asked if I believed in intecessory prayer.

2), Jufa asked only for the simply task of providing him with a definition based on personal experience.

3), Mckenzievmd jumped into the conversation stating Jufa was weaseling out of answering the question, yet no personal definition based on Retrospy or Mckenzievmd personal knowledge or experience had yet to be given.

4), Dougsmith simply provided the word intecessory prayer.

5), Mckenzievmd provided Jufa with what he/she believed intecessory prayer to be.  Have of yet to give a personal definition based on experience, not on hearsay, or what he/she has been told by someone else what they believe intecessory prayer to be.

6), Jufa responded stating to Mckenzievmd that by giving what he/she believed intecessory prayer to be was not what he ask.  Jufa again asked Mckenzievmd “to tell me what you knew intecessory prayer to mean from your experience.”

7), Mckenzievmd responded that two other persons have supplied Jufa with additional information.  Still, however, no one has defined what intercessory prayer means, and is according to their intecesssory experience of praying.  Moreover, as this synopsis shows, there was no more information supplied. 

Is this what you are about Mckenvievmd deceiving people to prove a point so you can find victory in your little personal war against Jufa?  Shame!  Shame! Shame!  Shame on you Mckenzievmd!!!!!!!

[ Edited: 12 August 2007 09:44 AM by jufa ]
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Posted: 12 August 2007 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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“You strike a match, what’s fire? You can tell me about oxidation, but that doesn’t tell me a thing”.

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Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength jufa

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Posted: 12 August 2007 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Er, jufa, I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not, but if you click on the word “intercesionary prayer” in my last message you’ll see why I posted it.

:ohoh:

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Posted: 12 August 2007 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Dougsmith, all you offered me was a word.  You attempted to give me different definition relative to interpretational comprehension of different religions.  I asked that hearsay evidendence one would offer was not telling me what intercessory prayer was in exactness to them.  You offered nothing of your expereince, so you offered nothing but someones elses definition

So now I ask you to give me a definitive answer also according to what you know, not what you think, or what you read from a book - I’m beginning to sound like a parrot, I keep repeating myself -  Is that such a hard thing to do?  Tell me what have you experience in the application of intercessory prayer?  When you and anyone else reading this will do this, then you are telling me what you know, not what you assume, or believe, but what you know.  Tell me what you know, and I tell you what I know and give you a definitive answer as to why I know it is such or not. 

Again, can anyone tell me what intercessory prayer means to them personally from experience of application in their individual lives?  Dougsmith, will you tell me in this manner and stop all the hearsay lies about what it is suppose to mean.?

To make it simple again I repeate “You strike a match, what’s fire? You can tell me about oxidation, but that doesn’t tell me a thing”.  This is exactly what you have done Dougsmith, you haven’t told me what fire is.

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Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength jufa

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Posted: 12 August 2007 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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jufa - 12 August 2007 12:46 PM

Again, can anyone tell me what intercessory prayer means to them personally from experience of application in their individual lives?

That term has no coherent meaning to me.  What, if anything, does it mean to you?

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