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HOW RELIGIONS START
Posted: 10 August 2007 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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I think you all ought to ask Holely goat about this one.  Apparently, he started a religion (by writing a very long book with lots of mythical sounding names in it) and managed to get a lot of followers until he told them it was all made up. Look up the “Hitteons” and try and figure out what is going on there.  Can’t see why they would all give it up just because the guy who started it said it was nonsense.  I mean, look at L. Ron Hubbrd’s document on the reasons for starting the church of scientology.  Make money is one of the the reasons that keeps cropping up, and yet scietology is flourishing.

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Posted: 10 August 2007 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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narwhol - 10 August 2007 08:52 PM

I think you all ought to ask Holely goat about this one.  Apparently, he started a religion (by writing a very long book with lots of mythical sounding names in it) and managed to get a lot of followers until he told them it was all made up. Look up the “Hitteons” and try and figure out what is going on there.  Can’t see why they would all give it up just because the guy who started it said it was nonsense.  I mean, look at L. Ron Hubbrd’s document on the reasons for starting the church of scientology.  Make money is one of the the reasons that keeps cropping up, and yet scietology is flourishing.

If you are addressing me, I do not see your point.  I made it very clear in my previous post that I detest all religions.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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I’m not; well, not exclusively.  The title of this thread being How religions start and all, I thought I’d post something about how religions start and address it to everyone reading this thread.  So, the “you all” that I was referring to in the first line of the post meant everyone reading this thread, including you, rather than just you specifically.  I just thought that someone who appears to have started a religion fairly successfully for the purposes of determining how religions start might be someone who could shed some light on this topic for us.

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Posted: 11 August 2007 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM
dougsmith - 10 August 2007 08:13 AM

This is what is known as “apologetics”. Jesus did not teach these things. He taught quite simply that the world was going to end in the lifetimes of his followers.
When that didn’t happen, what people should have done is realized that the guy was a fraud. Instead we got apologetics.

Oh!  And you KNOW this for certain?  How?

Matthew 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 9:1 “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”

Luke 9:27: “But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.”

Jesus believed that the world was going to come to an end during the lifetime of some of the people standing around him.

A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM

As Jesus apparently spoke Aramaic, and as we have no extant texts of his words which were ‘composed’ in this language, we are totally dependent on late texts of his words translated into Greek.  This is one of the reasons why his words have become corrupted and misunderstood.

Uh huh. So, when you find a passage you don’t like, you say that we don’t have Jesus’s actual words. And yet you claim to know how to understand them.

One might well ask you: Oh!  And you KNOW this for certain?  How?

A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM

Let me explain that I completely detest all religions, possibly more than you do.  But I do not detest the genuine Spiritual Masters who revealed the (Spiritual) Truth.  If you re-read my OP you will see how and why, imo, religions became corrupt and evil. [/size]

They become corrupt and evil, first and foremost, through cults of personality with so-called “Spiritual Masters”.

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Posted: 12 August 2007 01:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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dougsmith - 11 August 2007 11:13 AM
A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM
dougsmith - 10 August 2007 08:13 AM

This is what is known as “apologetics”. Jesus did not teach these things. He taught quite simply that the world was going to end in the lifetimes of his followers.
When that didn’t happen, what people should have done is realized that the guy was a fraud. Instead we got apologetics.

Oh!  And you KNOW this for certain?  How?

Matthew 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 9:1 “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”

Luke 9:27: “But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.”

Jesus believed that the world was going to come to an end during the lifetime of some of the people standing around him.

Where, in these verses, does Jesus say that the world will come to an end during the lifetime of some of the people standing around him?  You are simply imagining things.  The ‘Kingdom’ (of ‘God’/‘Heaven’) which Jesus speaks of is within.  It is not an external thing - IT IS SPIRITUAL!  See e.g. Luke 17:21 “nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the Kingdom of God is within you.”

A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM

As Jesus apparently spoke Aramaic, and as we have no extant texts of his words which were ‘composed’ in this language, we are totally dependent on late texts of his words translated into Greek.  This is one of the reasons why his words have become corrupted and misunderstood.

Uh huh. So, when you find a passage you don’t like, you say that we don’t have Jesus’s actual words. And yet you claim to know how to understand them.

One might well ask you: Oh!  And you KNOW this for certain?  How?

I personally do not rely on any written texts to provide me with Spiritual Truth.  I obtain Gnosis through the Spiritual Source.  Of course this will be rejected by materialists, who have not reached beyond their lower (unenlightened) minds.

A. Ben-Shema - 10 August 2007 07:26 PM

Let me explain that I completely detest all religions, possibly more than you do.  But I do not detest the genuine Spiritual Masters who revealed the (Spiritual) Truth.  If you re-read my OP you will see how and why, imo, religions became corrupt and evil. [/size]

They become corrupt and evil, first and foremost, through cults of personality with so-called “Spiritual Masters”.

There are many evil cults started and led by evil and/or misguided men, but this does not negate the possibility of a true and genuine Spiritual Master.  Jesus, I am sure, was such a Master.  The reason Christianity became evil and corrupt is in the way you say - the personality cults (e.g. of Paul and the Popes/leaders/theologians/etc.) which took over!  This is what I stated in my OP.

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Posted: 12 August 2007 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Doug here. The reasonable interpretation of those passages is that Jesus was saying the world would end during the lives of some of those who were present. There would be nothing so extraordinary about this as to make it incredible, in fact messianic prophets and others make statements like this quite often. And it’s not as though every other statement attributed to Jesus is beyond question or reproach. I’m a big fan of many of the parables. I think they’re spiritually brilliant, and get myself into trouble with fellow naturalists who wonder what that language means. However, may I respectfully suggest that if we’re going to look for spiritual content in scripture (not necessarily just Christian scripture, of course), that’s a completely separate issue from any claimed mundane/factual and literal truth in those writings. A.B., it strikes me that you’re mixing the two, and I don’t understand that. Can you explain?

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Posted: 12 August 2007 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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PLaClair - 12 August 2007 07:03 AM

I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Doug here. The reasonable interpretation of those passages is that Jesus was saying the world would end during the lives of some of those who were present. There would be nothing so extraordinary about this as to make it incredible, in fact messianic prophets and others make statements like this quite often. And it’s not as though every other statement attributed to Jesus is beyond question or reproach. I’m a big fan of many of the parables. I think they’re spiritually brilliant, and get myself into trouble with fellow naturalists who wonder what that language means. However, may I respectfully suggest that if we’re going to look for spiritual content in scripture (not necessarily just Christian scripture, of course), that’s a completely separate issue from any claimed mundane/factual and literal truth in those writings. A.B., it strikes me that you’re mixing the two, and I don’t understand that. Can you explain?

Religions are really supposed to be purely Spiritual communities.  Therefore, all truly ‘religious’ scripture should be purely Spiritual in content (e.g. leaving the material historians take care of material history seperately).  A genuine Spiritual Prophet will teach only of the Spirit.  The Bible, however, is a production of many men - some Spiritual, and some not.  This is one reason why it contains merely mundane history/myth/tradition, intermixed with some genuine Spiritual Wisdom.  Much corruption of the texts has also taken place over the centuries, so one has to beware of its many errors and contradictions.

I disagree with you about the passages with Jesus telling people that they would not die before they see the Kingdom of Heaven.  It has nothing to do with any material “end of the world” prophesy!  Even though the passages do not mention anything about the world actually ending, I would agree that it did mean an end to the ‘old vision/conception’ of the material world, and the birth of a ‘new’ vision/conception - a truly ‘Spiritual’ vision - and a new life and a new consciousness of everything!  In short it meant Spiritual ‘re-birth’, and so the old world and its ways will automatically pass away (Spiritually!) for THOSE people who receive it!

It is really very simple, but the unenlightened mind will ofter confuse things it does not understand.

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Posted: 12 August 2007 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Responding to A. Ben-Shama: I read your response, and now the matter is even worse because now you’re making another assumption. Implicit in what you write is that the people who actually wrote these words were enlightened. On what basis can we assume that? I don’t think we can except by wishful thinking.

I read the three passages Doug cited in context. They can be read as you suggest, but put in context, which refers to what surely sounds like what is usually described as “the judgment,” it’s a stretch.

I can support what you’re doing to the extent of looking for metaphors in the text, but I can’t support it to the extent of declaring that those metaphors represent the text’s “real meaning,” or what the authors intended. There’s simply no basis to think that.

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Posted: 13 August 2007 10:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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A. Ben-Shema - 12 August 2007 01:54 AM

It is not an external thing - IT IS SPIRITUAL!

the mentionings of the second coming of Jesus is not limited to those passages. The book of revelations talks about it extensively and in the context of a physical coming from the clouds. your interpretation simply doesnt hold up to the other scriptures. jesus predicted that his second coming would be within the lifetime of those he spoke to. he didnt and yet people still believe

there are still other ways to look back on Jesus and tell that he was a fraud: he thought the Earth was flat! surely the son of God would have known better! but he babbled on about the “four corners,” etc.

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Posted: 13 August 2007 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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A. Ben-Shema - 09 August 2007 07:34 PM
Mriana - 09 August 2007 04:39 PM

I think it is a start, but there is far more to it than that.  There is also a power thing too- ie Rome.  You can find the idea of religion, Rome, and power in various sources too.  So, there is a lot more to it than just that. A lot more.

By mentioning Rome you are limiting the subject to Christianity only.  I am talking about all religions.  Also, if you read the OP again, you will see that a reference was clearly made to money, power and politics.

Well if you want to go further back than that, check out Egypt.  Many religions started there, including mystery religions and alike.

I also agree with Doug, so I won’t start repeating things that he has said already.

However, the Gospels are nothing but stories that were written in Greek.  Jesus never really said any of those things UNLESS you want to say that those things intropulated from Q and alike are JC’s words.

[ Edited: 13 August 2007 12:22 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 13 August 2007 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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A. Ben-Shema - 12 August 2007 08:20 PM

I disagree with you about the passages with Jesus telling people that they would not die before they see the Kingdom of Heaven.  It has nothing to do with any material “end of the world” prophesy!  Even though the passages do not mention anything about the world actually ending, I would agree that it did mean an end to the ‘old vision/conception’ of the material world, and the birth of a ‘new’ vision/conception - a truly ‘Spiritual’ vision - and a new life and a new consciousness of everything!  In short it meant Spiritual ‘re-birth’, and so the old world and its ways will automatically pass away (Spiritually!) for THOSE people who receive it! [/size]

Doesn’t the clear fact that none of that happened (then or now) bother you at all? There never was any spiritual rebirth, so however you interpret it, Jesus was still lying.

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Posted: 20 August 2007 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I thought I had a CD version of the Q’R'Beth but it seems I don’t because if I did I could show you how people came to believe in my religion. But here is how I (we) advertised it years ago: “Do we all have hidden god like powers we are un-aware of? Was earth settled by space beings? Where did the American Indians come from? Where did Big Foot come from? Now at long last the secrets of the ages long hidden until now is being revealed for the first time of the long forgotten Hitteons which is the world’s oldest religion dating back more than 5,000 years ago to ancient Lemuria. Send for more information on how you can obtain a copy of the Q’R'Beth the ancient holy book of the Hitteon Faith to;......” Anyway that is part of the original advertisement in which dozens of people sent for. When I first started the faith I put together several flyers and placed them on bulletin boards and within a week a couple contacted me and within a month six people were confirmed membership and brought into the “holy priesthood of Aka” and there after the church (religion) just took off with four missionaries that year going to Canada and Africa. Most of the members were converted in Africa and Canada amongst North American Indians and Africans. But today there is between 5,000 to 12,000 Hitteons still practicing the religion as they never accepted the fact it was a hoax, but a test of their faith to see if they would quit. I understand that there are several splinter groups still practicing this religion as they swear it works for them. So yes religions start because people want the impossible or something for nothing.

But if a person decides that any unseen supernatural force can not possibly exist which can not be proven by seeing, touch, feel or hear then they will not except it they become agnostic. If they flatly do not believe it because they think it is impossible, period they are atheist.

Then there are the people who believe the entire existence of everything is a fantasy and nothing exist except in the thoughts of an unseen god which has the power to make anything up and it exists solely for the pleasure and egotistic desires of this one god, that is the inner most secret and final secret of the Hitteon Faith that we are all “God” or Aradia and everything is a delusion as we do not exist as we are only the thoughts of Aradia which is the one thought and therefore anything we so desire so it is, so it shall become as long as we are positive in all thought and all action both sleeping and awake all of the time. To reach this point we must have N’val (nah-vall) one with all things and in order to reach that point one must follow the teachings of the Q’R'Beth (pronounced cah raw bet) and practice the “Hitteon Way” to enlightenment. Anyway you can see how religions actually get started. If it seems too real to believe it probably is real to a lot of people especially if they are insecure, immature and easily swayed by hocus pocus and slight of the hand.

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