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Chiropractors?
Posted: 03 October 2011 03:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Check 67,68 and 69 in this thread :  http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/7517/P60/

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Posted: 03 October 2011 03:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I wonder why everybody here think the “scientific advisors” from ACSH are so reliable? About ACSH : http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Council_on_Science_and_Health

Check this link and you will find many leaders in the sceptic community :  http://www.acsh.org/about/pageid.89/default.asp

To me it seems as the sceptic organisation is a Frontorganisation for ACSH.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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And you should check out the material on chirobase. Chiropractic is basically a blend of massage and quackery.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I notice you are not familiar with the subject.:

About S Barrett and his work read:  http://buggesblogg.blogspot.com/2011/07/following-is-copied-from-medicine.html#comments


About Chiropractic read:  http://chiromt.com/

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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By the way S Barrett (He who “is” chirobase) i a “scientific advisor” to ACSH.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Helge - 03 October 2011 04:39 AM

I notice you are not familiar with the subject.:

I’m quite familiar with it. Not sure you are.

More HERE.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 05:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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That is just another copy of Barretts “work”.  You have obviously not yet read this link.:  http://buggesblogg.blogspot.com/2011/07/following-is-copied-from-medicine.html#comments

It is about your hero Stephen Barrett the ACSH ” scientific advisor”.   

 

 

 

 


http://www.acsh.org/docLib/20060417_sugar_web.pdf

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Posted: 03 October 2011 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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dougsmith - 03 October 2011 04:52 AM
Helge - 03 October 2011 04:39 AM

I notice you are not familiar with the subject.:

I’m quite familiar with it. Not sure you are.

More HERE.

That is a new one to me. I’m in the (medical) field, and any sub-specialties whose names do not appear to be attached to a familiar specialty is immediately suspect.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Helge - 03 October 2011 05:21 AM

That is just another copy of Barretts “work”.  You have obviously not yet read this link.:  http://buggesblogg.blogspot.com/2011/07/following-is-copied-from-medicine.html#comments

It is about your hero Stephen Barrett the ACSH ” scientific advisor”.   

The website I referenced is not a “copy” of anything, it is separate work by separate, competent medical professionals who are assiduous at ferreting out quackery.

As for the notorious case you reference attacking the American Medical Association, it is very old news. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it. It had nothing to do with evaluating Chiropractic as effective treatment. See also Brennen McKenzie’s piece HERE: “the court was “persuaded that the dominant factor [in the AMA’s efforts] was patient care and the AMA’s subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients.””

As for the paper on stroke risk and chiropractic care that you referenced in another thread: check out (e.g.) THIS response by Dr. Mark Crislip:

One would predict that if there were an association between chiropractic and stroke you would most easily find it in the young and the effect would be most noticeable in the first day or so after the chiropractic visit.
And this article confirms this association.

<snip>

Table 3 has the smoking gun. The highest odds ratio (14) for a stroke is 12, 4 times any other, in the age less than 45 in the first 24 hours after a visit to a chiropractor. And, to give credit where credit is due, they mention this as a key point in the discussion and, in the introduction, note two other studies that show an association between visiting a chiropractor and having a stroke. The risk of stroke is 5 to 6 times in these studies.

HERE is a response by Dr. Harriet Hall. HERE is another: “The bottom line: chiropractic manipulations, especially neck manipulations, carry a small risk of serious consequences, a large risk of minor adverse effects; and, depending on the indication, there is little or no evidence that they are effective.”

HERE is another by retired chiropractor Sam Homola.

Finally there’s THIS response from Dr. Barrett: “the study is meaningless because—unlike the German Vertebral Artery Dissection Study Group—the researchers did not examine clinical records and were not able to determine whether the diagnoses they tabulated were accurate or whether the strokes were related to the type of manipulation.”

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Posted: 03 October 2011 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Oh! another concoction of the word ‘chiropractor’!!!  LOL Quackery under a different guise is still quackery!

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Posted: 03 October 2011 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Barrett was leader of one sub-groups to the committee of quackery.They were on to dirty business. 

dougsmith says:  “As for the notorious case you reference attacking the American Medical Association, it is very old news. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it. It had nothing to do with evaluating Chiropractic as effective treatment. See also Brennen McKenzie’s piece HERE: “the court was “persuaded that the dominant factor [in the AMA’s efforts] was patient care and the AMA’s subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients.””


You totally miss the point. How did AMA intend to wipe out chiropractic?
They had a plan. During the discovery phase of the trail the chiropractors lawyers get their hands on the plan. Directly from AMA.:

The Committee on Quackery´s master plan for the demise of chiropractichad been developed by an attorney who originally represented the Iowa Iowa Medical Society, Robert B. Throckmorton. He was concerned about the rapid growth of chiropractic in Iowa and the possible threat it posed to the practices of physicians and surgeons.
Speaking before the regional North Central Medical Conference in Minneapolis on November 11, 1962 , he had addressed what he called a menace to chiropractic, labeled the profession a cult and called for a  “positive program of containment.” (3) He urged a national crusade against chiropractic. The outline of his plan included a broad list of  proposals designed  to destroy chiropractic both from within - through encoring ” chiropractic disunity ” and “stifling  chiropractic schools” - and from without , by encouraging ethical complaints against chiropractors ,
prohibiting chiropractic  care in hospitals, and opposing the workwers´compensation programs , medicare , and labor union health plans. Further , he cautioned that this should be done covertly:” Any action undertaken by the medical profession should be… behind the Scenes whenever possible.” And he gave one absolute directive for medical doctors :” Never give processional recognition to chiropractors . “(4)   
   After his impassioned specech  in Minepolis, Throckmorton was hired as the general counsel for the AMA, and as they say, the rest was history.”  
     Cooperating with the AMA in its antichiroprarctic campaign were some opinionated characters whi claimed to be protecting consumers, but in fact were spreading outrageously distorted information.”

Kiropraktorerna vann och AMA fick betala. Hur mycket det var krävde AMA, att det skulle hemlighållas.    


1. American medical Assocation Committee on Quackery, memorandum to the American Medical Assocation Board of Trustees, 4 Januari  1971. Also Plaintiff´s Exhibit 1338 in Wilk v. AMA   
2. ibid

Barrett is still working in the same way, as then he was the leader of one of the committees sub-groups.

Mark Crislip wrote :”
Table 3 has the smoking gun. The highest odds ratio (14) for a stroke is 12, 4 times any other, in the age less than 45 in the first 24 hours after a visit to a chiropractor. ”
That is stupidity.
Because the study did show that the risk was the same to get a VBA stroke after a visit to a MD as after visiting a DC. With such a small numbers of cases, of course the cases will not be evenly distributed among the months days.
Then Mark Crislip speculated , that because it was 14 cases the first day of the month that it meant that they were caused by chiropractors. That is so incredible stupid because that would mean the other days were it more risky to visit a MD. But no one say that MDs cause strokes. No, the risk was the same to get a stroke after visiting a MD, as after visiting aDC, because the patients visited a MD or a DC because they had an ongoing VBA dissection which give head or neck pain.

If the DCs had caused VBA dissections that later led to a stroke the risk should have been bigger for strokes after visiting a DC then after visiting a MD. But it was not.
So you are obviously not familiar with the subject.
If you want to learn anything about chiropractic you have to study chiropractic, and not the old lies from S Barrett.  Most people do understand that but not the so called Skeptics. That are not skeptics at all they are believers.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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So your argument is that you think chiropractic works and anyone who points out the evidence against it should be ignored because they are opposed to chiropractic? And the only way to learn the truth about chiropractic is to ask chiropractors, who are not biased and so can be trusted? Nonsense!

The evidence that chiropractic is useful for anything other than acute idiopathic lower back pain, for which it is roughly comparable to conventional therapy, is overwhelming, and much of it is accessible via THIS PAGE, for anyone interested in looking at the history and data themselves. If you would like to offer specific scientific evidence, a defense of the theoretical foundations of chiropractic, or something other than complaints about the motives of individual critics of chiropractic, we will listen. But personal attacks instead of evidence are the hallmark of a weak argument.

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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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“So your argument is that you think chiropractic works and anyone who points out the evidence against it should be ignored because they are opposed to chiropractic? And the only way to learn the truth about chiropractic is to ask chiropractors, who are not biased and so can be trusted? ”

Of course not ! From where did you got that idea?

“The Committee on Quackery´s master plan for the demise of chiropractichad been developed by an attorney who originally represented the Iowa Iowa Medical Society, Robert B. Throckmorton. He was concerned about the rapid growth of chiropractic in Iowa and the possible threat it posed to the practices of physicians and surgeons.
Speaking before the regional North Central Medical Conference in Minneapolis on November 11, 1962 , he had addressed what he called a menace to chiropractic, labeled the profession a cult and called for a “positive program of containment.” (3) He urged a national crusade against chiropractic. The outline of his plan included a broad list of proposals designed to destroy chiropractic both from within - through encoring ” chiropractic disunity ” and “stifling chiropractic schools” - and from without , by encouraging ethical complaints against chiropractors ,
prohibiting chiropractic care in hospitals, and opposing the workwers´compensation programs , medicare , and labor union health plans. Further , he cautioned that this should be done covertly:” Any action undertaken by the medical profession should be… behind the Scenes whenever possible.” And he gave one absolute directive for medical doctors :” Never give processional recognition to chiropractors . “(4)  
  After his impassioned specech in Minepolis, Throckmorton was hired as the general counsel for the AMA, and as they say, the rest was history.”  
    Cooperating with the AMA in its antichiroprarctic campaign were some opinionated characters whi claimed to be protecting consumers, but in fact were spreading outrageously distorted information.”

Kiropraktorerna vann och AMA fick betala. Hur mycket det var krävde AMA, att det skulle hemlighållas.  


1. American medical Assocation Committee on Quackery, memorandum to the American Medical Assocation Board of Trustees, 4 Januari 1971. Also Plaintiff´s Exhibit 1338 in Wilk v. AMA   
2. ibid”

This is historical facts and s Barrett is still spreading the same lies as then he was a leader of a subcommitte. Why dont you check what your leaders tell you? You act as if they are priests in your fundamentalist church. That how it looks from outside, and that it is not a nice view.

[ Edited: 03 October 2011 04:29 PM by Helge ]
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Posted: 03 October 2011 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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No chiropractic school in the world teach this, that I did quote from “science” based medicin.

“Chiropractic was invented by D. D. Palmer on September 18, 1895 when he adjusted the spine of a deaf man and allegedly restored his hearing (a claim that is highly implausible based on what we know of anatomy). Based on this one case, Palmer decided that all disease was due to subluxation: 95% to subluxations of the spine and 5% to subluxations of other bones.

The rationale for chiropractic hinges on three postulates:

Bones are out of place
Bony displacements cause nerve interference
Manipulating the spine replaces the bones, removing the nerve interference and allowing Innate (a vitalistic life force) to restore health.”


Why do you never check what YOUR SOURCES SAY? This is the shit that the committe said. It was not true at that time, and it is not true now.

Maybe you think the earth is flat?

[ Edited: 03 October 2011 05:09 PM by Helge ]
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Posted: 03 October 2011 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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The problem is that after more than 100 years, no one has been able to prove chiropractic subluxations exist or shown that they can consistently detect them, no one has been able to show that subluxations cause any disease, no one has been able to show that this magical spiritual energy “innate intelligence” exists or corresponds to any anatomic or physiologic entity, and no one has been able to show that chiropractic effectively treats any clinical problem other than back pain. You are the one making things up and believing claims without evidence.

And while it isn’t really impoirtant, here is the version of the history of chiropractic provided on THIS site from a pro-chiropractic lobby.

On September 18, 1895, D.D. Palmer was working late in his office when a janitor, Harvey Lillard, began working nearby…He soon realized Lillard was deaf.

Patiently, Palmer managed to communicate with the man, and learned that he had normal hearing for most of his life. However, he had been over in a cramped, stooping position, and felt something “pop” in his back. When he stood up, he realized he couldn’t hear.

Palmer deduced that the two events—the popping in his back and the deafness—had to be connected.

He ran his hand carefully down Lillard’s spine and felt one of the vertebra was not in its normal position. “I reasoned that if that vertebra was replaced, the man’s hearing should be restored,” he wrote in his notes afterwards. “With this object in view, a half hour’s talk persuaded Mr. Lillard to allow me to replace it. I racked it into position by using the spinous process as a lever, and soon the man could hear as before.”

Over the succeeding months, other patients came to Palmer with every conceivable problem, including flu, sciatica, migraine headaches, stomach complaints, epilepsy and heart trouble.

D.D. Palmer found each of these conditions responded well to the adjustments which he was calling “hand treatments.”

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