Helge - 03 October 2011 04:25 PM

You act as if they are priests in your fundamentalist church. That how it looks from outside, and that it is not a nice view.

Pot, meet kettle. Difference is that we have the evidence on our side. What you have is junk 19th century theories from a quack.

It is so obvious that you do not know what you talk about! WCA is a small exterm “organisation”. Barrrett use to talk about WCA without mention that it is a very small organization! The big USA organisation is ACA http://www.acatoday.org/level1_css.cfm?T1ID=42  ACA has 90% of the organised DCs, and ICA around 10%(Both ACA and ICA has taken a clear stand aginst WCA Because they try to foul people using the name “WCA”.).

There are some small organisations wihtout influence WCA is one of them, and WCA have choosen a name in order to foul people. Barret of course know that. But Barrett is also using WCA to foul people, but with other motives than the Romberg family who own WCA.

Here is some facts about WCA:

“

RESOLUTION # 1

AMERICAN CHIROPRACTIC ASSOCIATION RESOLUTION

ON THE WORLD CHIROPRACTIC ALLIANCE

Submitted by the ACA Board of Governors

WHEREAS, the American Chiropractic Association (ACA) has a history of inclusiveness and consensus building with a wide array of associations and individuals, inside and outside the chiropractic profession; and supports the core values of chiropractic and the importance of a democratic process in representative associations, and

WHEREAS, the World Chiropractic Alliance (WCA) filed official, corporate documents with the State of Arizona in 2000 indicating that the organization only had 240 “members” at that time and has not offered any information to indicate more significant numbers of verifiable members, and

WHEREAS, the WCA maintains a secret “membership” list and is not listed in any recognized directory of membership associations including the 2004 Association Yellow Book, and

WHEREAS, the WCA does not permit its “members” to vote to elect the officers or other board members of the WCA organization, and

WHEREAS, the un-elected president of the WCA is specifically designated in the WCA charter documents as “President for Life,” and

WHEREAS, the WCA Vice President (who is not a D.C.) is the son-in-law of the WCA “President for Life” and the WCA Chief Financial Officer is the wife of the WCA “President for Life”, and

WHEREAS, the WCA “President for Life” and these two family members also hold the positions of Chairman of the Board, Chief Operating Officer, President and Chief Financial Officer with the family-owned, WCA endorsed CBS malpractice insurance entity.  In ACA’s opinion, those positions give the appearance that the WCA is being used to sell products and services for the benefit of the “President for Life” and his family, and

WHEREAS, the WCA fervently promoted a bill (HR 2560) that would have stripped physician status from doctors of chiropractic and continued its efforts to promote this legislation even though 48 state chiropractic associations officially opposed it, and

WHEREAS, WCA actions on Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) and Department of Defense (DOD) legislation helped promote the positions and interests of the other non-chiropractic professional associations who have traditionally lobbied for issues detrimental to the chiropractic profession’s interests.

WHEREAS, the WCA “President for Life” placed his interests above those of veterans by proclaiming to the VA Secretary, “I would rather see chiropractors excluded from the entire [VA] program rather than included for the wrong reasons”, and

WHEREAS, the above public information was derived from the WCA website, publications, communications, corporate documents and our experiences with the organization, be it therefore

RESOLVED, it is the view and position of the American Chiropractic Association that the WCA has significant and unacceptable conflicts of interest within its un-elected leadership, does not qualify as a representative membership association and does not have sufficient “membership” to warrant consideration as a national or international decision-maker or representative voice for the chiropractic profession. “

So Barrett is using Rombergs bluff to bluff a bigger audience that WCA is chiropractic. But in USA ACA is chiropractic.  http://www.acatoday.org/level1_css.cfm?T1ID=42
Barrett is using the same methods that the committe against quackery used in order to foul people. Check the history in #37.You can also read about WFC :  http://www.wfc.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=110&Itemid=107&lang=en

So I am sorry you are fouled by Barrett.  Why don´t you check the facts yourself instead of beliving in your leaders as in a traditional church???  And this is CENTER FOR INQUIRY ??

This has nothing to do with Barrett, and nothing to do with the WCA in particular. Get over them, Helge. It has to do with the fact that chiropractic is largely nonsense (with some massage thrown in), that can at times prove very dangerous nonsense.

You logic is as a true fundamentalist. You belive in your religion and will not be disturbed by the reality. Pride and Prejudice could be the name on a book about the narrowminded “sceptics”. It seems as marccelo Truzzi did write about you.: “Since “skepticism” properly refers to doubt rather than denial—nonbelief rather than belief—critics who take the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves “skeptics” are actually pseudo-skeptics and have, I believed, gained a false advantage by usurping that label.” From   http://www.anomalist.com/commentaries/pseudo.html

But this thread is about chiropractic, and you are obviously not familiar with the subject. So read and learn:  http://www.nuhs.edu/why-national/  http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/trimester-by-trimester/    http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/course-descriptions/

You have a possibility to learn .But I think that it scare you.

You are one of Barretts follower, but you do not know, and you do not want to know.

Sounds like helge is invested in chiropractic. Tough to see the light when your investment is already placed.

traveler
“Sounds like….”    It is not hard facts that you are delivering.

Most of what I have seen chiropractors do is relatively harmless and as Mckenzie has said, it is probably as effective as traditional physical therapy. Unfortunately many chiropractors also promote a lot of alternative remedies which are useless at best and harmful in some cases. I’ll never forget a 25 year old woman i saw in the emergency room as a resident who had been seeing a chiropractor for a number of complaints. It is not clear what this chiropractor diagnosed her with but his treatment was “ink of cuttle fish”. This woman took the “remedy” for several days until she became so severely ill that her roommate brought her to the ER. In the ER she went into profound septic shock. She had such a high bacterial count that blood cultures which usually take a day or so to grow out came back positive just 2 hours after she showed up in the ER. Unfortunately by that time she was dead. Further test results indicated that this patient had Lupus and for reasons unknown had developed bacterial endocarditis ( an infection of the heart valves). The chiropractor was not trained or equipped to handle either of these conditions and should never have been treating this patient.

This is the main danger with alternative practitioners in my mind. They do not have the medical training or scientific background to know when something is serious. They have no way of distinguishing between a mild illness like a cold and a life threatening condition like this woman had. Their treatments may be harmless ( and useless) except when they are treating a patient who actually needs an accurate diagnosis and effective treatments.

Helge - 04 October 2011 05:38 AM

traveler
“Sounds like….”    It is not hard facts that you are delivering.

From BJ Palmer: “Chiropractors have found in every disease that is supposed to be contagious, a cause in the spine. In the spinal column we will find a subluxation that corresponds to every type of disease. If we had one hundred cases of small-pox, I can prove to you where, in one, you will find a subluxation and you will find the same conditions in the other ninety-nine. I adjust one and return his functions to normal… . There is no contagious disease… . There is no infection… . There is a cause internal to man that makes of his body in a certain spot, more or less a breeding ground [for microbes]. It is a place where they can multiply, propagate, and then because they become so many they are classed as a cause.”

So mind telling us the “facts” behind the concept central to all of Chiropractic theory and practice, that of vertebral subluxation?

Hint:

In 2009, four scholarly chiropractors concluded that epidemiologic evidence does not support chiropractic’s most fundamental theory. Since its inception, the vast majority of chiropractors have postulated that “subluxations” (misalignments) are the cause or underlying cause of ill health and can be corrected with spinal “adjustments.” After searching the scientific literature, the chiropractic authors concluded:
“No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal, this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability.”

Helge - 04 October 2011 05:38 AM

traveler
“Sounds like….”    It is not hard facts that you are delivering.

Of course not. It was really a way of getting you to point out your motivation for feeling so strongly that a mostly benign (though occasionally tragic) ‘profession’ is worthy of people’s money. It is rare that someone fights for a thing without reason. Just want to know your reason. Of course you don’t have to share.

dougsmith@

The BJ Palmer quotation is from 1909. It is one hundred years old!

The HEW-report was written BEFORE the department of Health,Education, and Welfare had ordered the report to be written ! During the trial against AMA the chiropractors lawyers (during the discovery phase of the trail) found that AMA had decided what should be in the report before the department had decide that it should be a report.

So the report is fake. It is a part of AMAs plan to contain and eliminate chiropractic.
It is written with that purpose. But in order to get it to look serious it had to have some truth in it, and one part is of interest for this discussion. The report is from 1968, and the department of health knew at that time this:

“Subluxation
The concept of a vertebral subluxation is central to the chiropractic approach to health care. Dorland’s medical dictionary defines subluxation as “an incomplete or partial dislocation.” The chiropractic definition is:
Homewood: The vertebrae are then within their normal range of motion, although not functioning at their optimum [6:14].
Janse: A vertebral subluxation may be interpreted as an ‘off-centering: of a vertebral segment [7:146-149].
Weiant: [A subluxation] is a fixation of the joint within its normal range of movement, usually at the extremity of this range [7].
According to these chiropractic leaders, subluxated vertebrae are characterized by fixation and misalignment, within the normal range of motion. This definition is identical to what specialists in physical medicine and rehabilitation call joint dysfunction”

Quoted from the HEW report. From Barretts chirobase. :
http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/HEW/hew03.html

You read Barrett, but not in a critical way. The tree leading persons inside chiropractic can you check on google.
The US government had known for long what chiropractors definition
of subluxation is.
But AMA wanted “to contain and eliminate chiropractic” because of
competition. Thats the reason for AMA description of chiropractic.
Not so many believe in that picture today. But the skeptics do. My question is why?
I guess it is because Barrett is a CSI fellow, and Barrett is working for
the lobby organization ACSH, that work fore chemical and pharmaceutical companies(See ACSH on Sourcwatch http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Council_on_Science_and_Health
There are many other leaders in “the skeptical movement” that is linked to ACSH. Steven Novella Michael Shermer, Manfred Kroger…. 

Dougsmith wrote :“This has nothing to do with Barrett,” It is Barretts picture of chiropractic you believe in, so of course it has.
Spinal dysfunctions or joint dysfunctions is named “subluxation"by some chiropractors. But more and more chiropractors say spinal dysfunctions. It is only a change of word.
I have never heard about a chiropractor that “believe in ” the quotation from 1895. IF you know some let me know who and where.

http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=36220

http://www.chiromt.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-13-17.pdf

http://www.chiromt.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-13-17.pdf

McGyver are you real ? 

This is a good Chriopractic education.  http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/trimester-by-trimester/

Helge you can’t be for real. There are already plenty of accredited medical professionals working with the spine, the bones, posture, etc. They’re called neurosurgeons, physiatrists, sports doctors, kinesiotherapists, licensed massage therapists, etc.

The only thing that distinguishes chiropractic as a specialty is the notion of misaligned vertebra being responsible for human disease, whereby you cure disease by manipulating the spine. It’s a school of medicine built on nonsense.

You need to look at some objective information rather than getting all your info from chiropractic marketing campaigns and websites. Check out Wikipedia, for example.

dougsmith

You are funny!

You wrote:
“The only thing that distinguishes chiropractic as a specialty is the notion of misaligned vertebra being responsible for human disease, whereby you cure disease by manipulating the spine. It’s a school of medicine built on nonsense.You need to look at some objective information rather than getting all your info from chiropractic marketing campaigns and websites. Check out Wikipedia, for example.”

Why not be serious check the literature they use in Chriopractic schools, and see if you can find anything about:“misaligned vertebra being responsible for human disease, whereby you cure disease by manipulating the spine.”

It seems as you only are a believer, who is afraid of the reality!? You are spreading lies!

Who do you think you fool?

(You can also read this link:    http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/trimester-by-trimester/        )

Helge, your links are completely uninformative. A list of course names tells nothing.

If as you imply chiropractic medical colleges teach the same things one learns in a normal accredited medical school, why learn chiropractic? The point you’re trying to make is absurd on its face.

Helge - 04 October 2011 01:08 PM

McGyver are you real ? 

This is a good Chriopractic education.  http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/trimester-by-trimester/

Clarify your question